Germany recognizes 1915-1916 massacres as Armenian Genocide.

[Slant]

That's the difference between Germany and Turkey: One acknowledges that they have done bad things, the other one covers their ears and pretends that nothing happened.

It helped that the allied forces marched the population through concentration camps at gunpoint. Literally that is what happened. It's hard to deny something happened when you see actual stacks of bodies 2m high in front of you.

[muwatallis]

Why would a compensation be made up of land?

That's the Armenian "idea ultima". Armenians still consider and name the eastern Anatolian plateau as "Western Armenia", it was the large chunk of land that was promised by Wilson in Treaty of Sevres, and Armenian diaspora is still after making a 100 years old treaty which never even came close to be in use viable once again in order to obtain that landmass "internationally recognized". They call it their ancestral grounds.

[Machismo]

I asked this to a professor in law school. The moment any state representative even implies that it was a genocide (not massacre, genocide), Armenia will have higher chance of winning the case should they bring it to the International Court of Justice. There is a reason they haven't brought t the case yet, because there isn't any evidence (read: not opinion, evidence) that it was conducted by the Ottoman Empire. They know they can't win the case. Furthermore, there is evidence to the contrary. Ottoman Empire tried to prevent the massacres, they failed because they were in a massive war. From judicial perspective, Armenia can not prove anything.

Is that an attempted dodge, since the rulers of the government had just recently changed?

[Kuntantee]

I'm still a bit puzzled why the German Parliament feels the need to condemn an action by one country done to another country such a long time ago. It's like somebody actually wants to piss Erdogan of. I mean, it really isn't any of our business. Bring it up in EU membership negotiations all you like, where it's relevant.. but this one is a bit out of the blue.

Germany is the driving engine behind Armenian Genocide claims because they don't want to be alone in genociders party. This is regardless of whether Armenian Genocide is indeed genocide or not. Why Germans can't see this is beyond me. Moving on, it pretty much serves everyone's interest in Germany. Christian Democrats and Social Democrats are happy that they are pissing of/retaliating the country that Germany *seemed like* bowing and they don't want to be alone in the "party" I mentioned. Cem Ozdemir and like-minded Greens are the frontier preachers of this farce from the beginning. Cem Ozdemir trying to gain political leverage by shitting on Turkey. These kind of tricks neither works for Germans, nor for Turks.

[Machismo]

Germany is the driving engine behind Armenian Genocide claims because they don't want to be alone in genociders party. This is regardless of whether Armenian Genocide is indeed genocide or not. Why Germans can't see this is beyond me. Moving on, it pretty much serves everyone's interest in Germany. Christian Democrats and Social Democrats are happy that they are pissing of/retaliating the country that Germany *seemed like* bowing and they don't want to be alone in the "party" I mentioned. Cem Ozdemir and like-minded Greens are the frontier preachers of this farce from the beginning. Cem Ozdemir trying to gain political leverage by shitting on Turkey. These kind of tricks neither works for Germans, nor for Turks.

Does that do anything to change the fact that it actually happened?

[Kuntantee]

Is that an attempted dodge, since the rulers of the government had just recently changed?

Do you understand the difference between a state and a government?

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That's the Armenian "idea ultima". Armenians still consider and name the eastern Anatolian plateau as "Western Armenia", it was the large chunk of land that was promised by Wilson in Treaty of Sevres, and Armenian diaspora is still after making a 100 years old treaty which never even came close to be in use viable once again in order to obtain that landmass "internationally recognized". They call it their ancestral grounds.

Armenian education is probably one of the most nationalistic in this and all other parallel universes. There is still a widespread desire for Western Anatolia in Armenian society. Similar "ideas" exist in Greek society as well, although much less common and probably seen among more nationalist circles. Armenians national identity is built upon genocide claims, which is a bit pathetic.

[Machismo]

Do you understand the difference between a state and a government?

One is the nation, the other is the body that makes the laws and runs that particular nation. Americans refer to the entire system as the government, where other countries often refer to the the current administrative formation as the government.

Do you deny that a genocide took place, or that the government perpetrated it?

[Kuntantee]

One is the nation, the other is the body that makes the laws and runs that particular nation. Do you deny that a genocide took place, or that the government perpetrated it?

I don't know why did you make that non-sensical post. I thought you were implying rulers change, so statemens that I mentioned earlier, the statements implying genocide, can not be used in a court. This is pure non-sense. Any member of the government represents the state in Turkey, and their actions are actions of Turkish state.

For example, last summer, HDP, a party acknowledging genocide, had several ministers. All of them shutted the fuck up when it comes to Armenian Genocide claims beucase they knew the dire consequences.

Moving on, the latter is guaranteed to be bullshit. If there is a genocide, it is not an endaovour initiated and systematically conducted by Ottoman Government. There is good chunk of evidence pointing the contrary. For the "genocide" part, the total number of deaths is massive, something around 800k (not 1.5m, that's pure bullocks) but there isn't any evidence pointing out the perpetrators. No one actually knows how they died, is it massacres all along or desease, we don't know. This has been pointed out by notable historians, one of them happens to be Bernard Lewis. Genocide claims are pretty mucn interpretation of death toll, which is not enough to convict Turkey...Unless Turkey acknlowedges the genocide.

[Machismo]

I don't know why did you make that non-sensical post. I thought you were implying rulers change, so statemens that I mentioned earlier, the statements implying genocide, can not be used in a court. This is pure non-sense. Any member of the government represents the state in Turkey, and their actions are actions of Turkish state.

Moving on, the latter is guaranteed to be bullshit. If there is a genocide, it is not an endaovour initiated and systematically conducted by Ottoman Government. There is good chunk of evidence pointing the contrary. For the "genocide" part, the total number of deaths is massive, something around 800k (not 1.5m, that's pure bullocks) but there isn't any evidence point out the perpetrator. No one actually knows how they died, is it massacres all along or desease, we don't know. This has been pointed out by notable historians, one of them happens to be Bernard Lewis. Genocide claims are pretty mucn interpretation of death toll, which is not enough to convict Turkey.

Holy crap, you seem willing to ignore a whole lot. People magically died, and government that rounded them up and murdered them... somehow was not responsible. Even their allies observed and reported on it.You managed to dodge and deny, without actually answering the question. I'll ask again, and you can respond with a single word for each one:

Do you deny that a genocide took place?

If it did, did the government perpetrated it?

I want it very clear where you stand, not that we all can't already tell.

[Kuntantee]

Holy crap, you seem willing to ignore a whole lot. People magically died, and government that rounded them up and murdered them... somehow was not responsible. Even their allies observed and reported on it.You managed to dodge and deny, without actually answering the question. I'll ask again, and you can respond with a single word for each one:

Do you deny that a genocide took place?

If it did, did the government perpetrated it?

I want it very clear where you stand, not that we all can't already tell.

Your questions are addressed, read again.

[Anaralah]

One is the nation, the other is the body that makes the laws and runs that particular nation. Americans refer to the entire system as the government, where other countries often refer to the the current administrative formation as the government.

Do you deny that a genocide took place, or that the government perpetrated it?

Most of the Turkish argument is that an event of massacre can not be called a genocide as long as govenment doesnt perpetrate it, they go even further that it can not be called a genocide as long as government officially orders it, so as long as you cant find official documents in Ottoman archives that orders military leaders to kill Armenians in mass they will not call it genocide (i think you can find such documents in the case of holocaust for example), which i find stupid and overly "pragmatic" approach by evading the issue with the use of semanthics to be honest, even if we assume (which is a big leap of faith) Ottoman government wasnt the perpetrator of the events, they barely did anything to prevent it, could they have prevented it fully from happening? probably no, but they could reduce its scale significantly if they actually cared about it.

On the other hand i find govenments voting on whether historical events happened or not, or whether they should be called this or that pretty silly and i assume them to be political moves either to satisfy their populations or send a message to the opposing countries, if this were the trend every government should have to pass hundreds of votes for every genocidal event happened in history.

[Kuntantee]

This says a lot about Turkey, really.

People insult erdogan every day, you don't need a VPN. You just need a bit of anonymity, like a nickname. The guy was joking, open up the Turkish twitter and observe the mayhem unfold for Erdogan. You are taking everything yo uread for granted. Either way, insulting him is pointless. He's still there and he's still doing what he is doing whether someone insults him or not.

[Lodreh]

This may be the American in me... but who cares? It was a century ago. Yes it sucked... but those are not the policies you up hold today. I'd be surprised if anyone is still alive that a) had a hand in it or b) lived through it. How does it change anything? The Ottoman Empire no longer exist... the Armenians who did survive already know of it's atrocities... again what's the point of getting worked up over this?

[Machismo]

Your questions are addressed, read again.

No, you dodged. I want to know IF you think it was genocide, and I want to know WHO you think perpetrated it.

Answer the question, coward.

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People insult erdogan every day, you don't need a VPN. You just need a bit of anonymity, like a nickname. The guy was joking, open up the Turkish twitter and observe the mayhem unfold for Erdogan. You are taking everything yo uread for granted. Either way, insulting him is pointless. He's still there and he's still doing what he is doing whether someone insults him or not.

If insulting him lands a person in jail, then your country is run by tyrants.

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Most of the Turkish argument is that an event of massacre can not be called a genocide as long as govenment doesnt perpetrate it, they go even further that it can not be called a genocide as long as government officially orders it, so as long as you cant find official documents in Ottoman archives that orders military leaders to kill Armenians in mass they will not call it genocide (i think you can find such documents in the case of holocaust for example), which i find stupid and overly "pragmatic" approach by evading the issue with the use of semanthics to be honest, even if we assume (which is a big leap of faith) Ottoman government wasnt the perpetrator of the events, they barely did anything to prevent it, could they have prevented it fully from happening? probably no, but they could reduce its scale significantly if they actually cared about it.

On the other hand i find govenments voting on whether historical events happened or not, or whether they should be called this or that pretty silly and i assume them to be political moves either to satisfy their populations or send a message to the opposing countries, if this were the trend every government should have to pass hundreds of votes for every genocidal event happened in history.

Really, they just don't want to recognize the shitty parts of their history. It shows them to be willfully ignorant cowards. It does not mean they have to pay out money or land. However, it does show that they cannot be trusted.

[JohnBrown1917]

Armenia isn't valuable enough to to sacrifice relations with Turkey, for anyone. No country benefits advancing their global or regional interests by trading a state that matters more for one that matters less.

Does not mean we should give up on our principles, a lot of Germans/Dutch people don't even want good relations with Turkey at this point.

[Kuntantee]

No, you dodged. I want to know IF you think it was genocide, and I want to know WHO you think perpetrated it.

Answer the question, coward.

I will bite it because your comprehension skills seem a bit limited. There isn't any proof indicating it was a genocide, so I will keep believing it isn't one so long as there is no proof.

[JohnBrown1917]

To share my point of view of giving zero fucks on the subject being proliferated endlessly across the internet and world. So here it is again, I give zero fucks about the subject. But give a lot of fucks about my opinions. You seem very fascinated with me. Maybe you should start up a subject and we just talk about me? Or PM me and try to get a little closer or something? But in this one I am keeping it to the subject header.

I give zero fucks about this situation. It makes very little sense to worry or cry about things in the past. Sure if you can physically get the people held responsible that did the crimes go for it. If they are long gone and dead zero point in pushing the issue. Others shouldn't have to pay for others crimes. Build a statue or something if you want to just do it with your own money. It seems that important to you so why not.

You seem very ill-informed, this is nothing more than Germany accepting it happened, nothing more.
Really, what crawled up in your butt?

[Kuntantee]

It helped that the allied forces marched the population through concentration camps at gunpoint. Literally that is what happened. It's hard to deny something happened when you see actual stacks of bodies 2m high in front of you.

You wouldn't recognize a jackshit if you were the victor.

[JohnBrown1917]

This may be the American in me... but who cares? It was a century ago. Yes it sucked... but those are not the policies you up hold today. I'd be surprised if anyone is still alive that a) had a hand in it or b) lived through it. How does it change anything? The Ottoman Empire no longer exist... the Armenians who did survive already know of it's atrocities... again what's the point of getting worked up over this?

You should ask Erdogan.

[Machismo]

I will bite it because your comprehension skills seem a bit limited. There isn't any proof indicating it was a genocide, so I will keep believing it isn't one so long as there is no proof.

Willful ignorance is your choice... got it.