Warforged, extra socket, tertiary stats and now Titanforged.

[FelPlague]

So then... what you are saying... is that having RNG gear really has no reason to be in game at all. Either way... it means nothing to some... and too much to others... sounds like an unnecessary feature then.

So does pet battles. But if you removed it now a lot of people would be mad.

Look the bonus stats are very minor. And you should not be going "I wanna 100% a mmo to the extreme" the whole point of a mmo is to last long. Its like trying to explore all of mine craft... it's possible but is it worth it. Get your BiS year that's fine. But don't scream at blizzard cause getting the BiS gear with sockets. Leech/avoidance. And highest item level is something that should be easily possible... if you want to fully 100% something it should take a long time. I find it funny how people complain getting epics is too easy. But then complain when blizzard try to make "epics" harder to get by added these and making them hard to get

[Deleted]

So does pet battles. But if you removed it now a lot of people would be mad.

Look the bonus stats are very minor. And you should not be going "I wanna 100% a mmo to the extreme" the whole point of a mmo is to last long. Its like trying to explore all of mine craft... it's possible but is it worth it. Get your BiS year that's fine. But don't scream at blizzard cause getting the BiS gear with sockets. Leech/avoidance. And highest item level is something that should be easily possible... if you want to fully 100% something it should take a long time. I find it funny how people complain getting epics is too easy. But then complain when blizzard try to make "epics" harder to get by added these and making them hard to get

I advocate for a system that makes it take a long time to upgrade these items... because RNG sucks, you can do nothing about it.
It's not "hard" to get them, it's just unlikely. Don't mix these two things up! It's unlikely to find 200 Dollars in the strees, but it's hard to steal the 200 Dollars from someone. Very different things!

[PassingBy]

Why would I get excited over the worst variation of what I can get? I don't get exited for a cheeseburger nobody vomited on, do you?
I get exited if my cheeseburger had a golden ring in it... because thats a special cheeseburger.

It's not even small, it's tiny even the most achievable upgrade takes statistically 67 drops to happen... thats over a year of trying! FOR THE MOST LIKELY UPGRADE.

Just make it a Valor grind, it doesn't take anything away, it just ADDS to the game!

/Edit: And the BIS Version of the Item is objectively better for my character, I do more Damage, Heal more, can tank better... so someone having it could take my raid spot from me or be the reason I get kicked out of the pug. Because I wasn't lucky.

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Jep too much RNG just makes the things hidden behind it seem like an unneccessary timesink of development-time. Because you rarely experience it.

You get a perfectly fine cheeseburger, a cheeseburger that is as tasty and nice as the cheeseburger that the other 13333 people are getting.
However one of those people gets a cheeseburger with extra bacon, as part of a lottery.
You can be that person if you're lucky, or not if you're not.

Your cheeseburger doesn't get vomit on it, unless it is you vomiting because of being too upset about someone getting something better than you did.

What you are expecting is the same "everyone shall get everything" mentality that is running this game into the ground.
And making the little rng things into mandatory and mundane.
Like they have alrady did with the legendaries.

[FelPlague]

Why would I get excited over the worst variation of what I can get? I don't get exited for a cheeseburger nobody vomited on, do you?
I get exited if my cheeseburger had a golden ring in it... because thats a special cheeseburger.

It's not even small, it's tiny even the most achievable upgrade takes statistically 67 drops to happen... thats over a year of trying! FOR THE MOST LIKELY UPGRADE.

Just make it a Valor grind, it doesn't take anything away, it just ADDS to the game!

/Edit: And the BIS Version of the Item is objectively better for my character, I do more Damage, Heal more, can tank better... so someone having it could take my raid spot from me or be the reason I get kicked out of the pug. Because I wasn't lucky.

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Jep too much RNG just makes the things hidden behind it seem like an unneccessary timesink of development-time. Because you rarely experience it.

Again. You are not reading things. So imagine you go to a store. Chance to win 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 cheeseburgers. You go there. Buy one. Eh didn't win. Oh well I got a cheeseburger. Next week you go OH shit 3 cheeseburgers! Next 4 weeks you come. 1 cheeseburger. Then after that 5 cheeseburgers awe yeah.

Your not LOSING anything with this system. It just makes it so. You get a price of gear. She whatever its still a price of gear. BUT if your lucky you might get a bonus
Your also saying 67 and that is for if you want to win all most all types on it... and that's stupid... that's entering 5 lotteries then crying when you only won 2 out of 5 million dollers


Lol and you think adding in this system uses tons of degolpment time? Dude adding it in was pretty effing simple actually

[Ustabil]

Well since we dont rly know for sure, but from my personal experience. The more RnG they seem to add to the gear the less players stay around to farm mythic for their bis items.

Some people get mad cause they dont like the fact that others can get better gear than them, but doing easier content and i dont rly get that to much. Dont see why we should care about other more than ourself. The fact that titanforged has a chance of adding +75 ilevels and basicly therefore make LFR items same ilevel as base mythic items is something that will affect myself personaly. Since im a playter that tends to do what i can do to gear up and help our raid progress it will mean that i "feel forced" to do LFR, Normal, HC each week to make sure i have the best possible gear i can have going into mythic progression.

All this will do is just burn our people way faster, and do the opposite of what they want this rng to do.

[cFortyfive]

Well plebs obviously love that rng garbage.

[Deleted]

You get a perfectly fine cheeseburger, a cheeseburger that is as tasty and nice as the cheeseburger that the other 13333 people are getting.
However one of those people gets a cheeseburger with extra bacon, as part of a lottery.
You can be that person if you're lucky, or not if you're not.

Your cheeseburger doesn't get vomit on it, unless it is you vomiting because of being too upset about someone getting something better than you did.

What you are expecting is the same "everyone shall get everything" mentality that is running this game into the ground.
And making the little rng things into mandatory and mundane.
Like they have alrady did with the legendaries.

Yes I get what everyone gets... so I'm not too exited about that...
Yes and if I get that bacon cheeseburger it would be great, but if I could buy it for 50 cents more... guess what? I would buy it instead of rolling the dice, because I want the bacon cheeseburger.

You completely missed the golden ring part didn't you?

No, you still need to get the item and farm the valor to get the BIS Item... everybody CAN get everything. equality of opportunity, not of outcome.
It's not "little" rng, it's RNG that takes items from 10% drop chance down to 0.0075%! That's HUGE rng.
Oh no, something you can do to get better gear would be mandatory for things that need better gear? Tell me more about how insane that is.

It's the same with jobs... if you didn't put the time in to get experience, you are more unlikely to be hired. But you want the employer to roll a dice to see if he takes you ore the guy with 25 years of experience, because you don't want to put in the effort.

[Ustabil]

People forget gear is a means to an end. So the hamburger metaphore dont rly hold up.

[cFortyfive]

People forget gear is a means to an end.

They disregard it because it's not the case. Gear is part of the reward system keeping this game alive. Claiming it's just a tool to deal with content is dishonest to say the least.

[Deleted]

Again. You are not reading things. So imagine you go to a store. Chance to win 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 cheeseburgers. You go there. Buy one. Eh didn't win. Oh well I got a cheeseburger. Next week you go OH shit 3 cheeseburgers! Next 4 weeks you come. 1 cheeseburger. Then after that 5 cheeseburgers awe yeah.

Your not LOSING anything with this system. It just makes it so. You get a price of gear. She whatever its still a price of gear. BUT if your lucky you might get a bonus
Your also saying 67 and that is for if you want to win all most all types on it... and that's stupid... that's entering 5 lotteries then crying when you only won 2 out of 5 million dollers


Lol and you think adding in this system uses tons of degolpment time? Dude adding it in was pretty effing simple actually

No your example is plain wrong.
The Chanes would be: Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger with extra Cheese, Cheeseburger with Bacon, Cheeseburger with extra Cheese and Extra Bacon
You can only buy a cheeseburger and you have a low chance of getting any of the other 3 instead... but I want my Cheeseburger with Bacon, but I cannot have it... I need to roll a dice and hope.
I want a system where you can pay extra to get the Bacon Cheeseburger without rolling the dice!

You don't understand statistics do you? I only enter 1 lottery, the one for the item, the rest is not opt-in. It's one big lottery and WF is only 4th place.

/Edit: Right they don't need to keep track of every item with every upgrade... and people really experience the "joy" so often it was truly worth the time... not

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Well since we dont rly know for sure, but from my personal experience. The more RnG they seem to add to the gear the less players stay around to farm mythic for their bis items.

Some people get mad cause they dont like the fact that others can get better gear than them, but doing easier content and i dont rly get that to much. Dont see why we should care about other more than ourself. The fact that titanforged has a chance of adding +75 ilevels and basicly therefore make LFR items same ilevel as base mythic items is something that will affect myself personaly. Since im a playter that tends to do what i can do to gear up and help our raid progress it will mean that i "feel forced" to do LFR, Normal, HC each week to make sure i have the best possible gear i can have going into mythic progression.

All this will do is just burn our people way faster, and do the opposite of what they want this rng to do.

Excatly my point... Would you feel forced to do anything other then mythic raids if mythic raids could fill your valor cap for the week and after 2 - 3 weeks you can upgrade your gear?

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I gave up on figuring out gear when they took out reforging.

Blizz wanted you to get a piece of gear and put it on, and now all these modifiers are making it near impossible to put on that piece of gear because next run will drop a .5% upgrade by having Titanforging and a Gem slot instead of just Titanforging.

[Ustabil]

They disregard it because it's not the case. Gear is part of the reward system keeping this game alive. Claiming it's just a tool to deal with content is dishonest to say the least.

Guess im in the minority when i stop caring about loot the instant i cleared the raids, and for me gear is only there to help me get the achivment. The achivment and experience is the biggest reward imo. Gear upgrades are fun and all, but to me only so cause it gets me stronger and let me experience more of the content i like.

Also when gear start to outshine next tiers items, even the people who raid mainly for gear should see the problem. Lets say you do LFR get super lucky with a trinket proc and get an 875 Titanforged trinket. You will now raid both normal and HC most likely withotu seeing an upgrade. And if mainly raid for gear and gear is your reward, you basicly have 1 less chance of getting rewarded

[Deleted]

I gave up on figuring out gear when they took out reforging.

Blizz wanted you to get a piece of gear and put it on, and now all these modifiers are making it near impossible to put on that piece of gear because next run will drop a .5% upgrade by having Titanforging and a Gem slot instead of just Titanforging.

Another excellent point for why rng is stupid.

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Guess im in the minority when i stop caring about loot the instant i cleared the raids, and for me gear is only there to help me get the achivment. The achivment and experience is the biggest reward imo. Gear upgrades are fun and all, but to me only so cause it gets me stronger and let me experience more of the content i like.

So, you wouldn't care if they removed the rng either...
You probably would prefer a Valor-based Upgrade System, because you can decide what upgrade you get when so it helps you to get to the content you like faster.

[anon5123]

So basically they're making the loot system even more Diablo-esque by adding in huge amounts of RNG to the power of items.

Greeeeeat. Up to +75 item level? Seriously? So you can do LFR and potentially get a piece of gear on par with Mythic gear? what the shit.

This is going to lead to situations where someone needs an item, but someone who already has it will roll on it as well because it's an ilvl upgrade.

Praying this shit doesn't make it past beta, because honestly this sounds atrocious. I was kinda excited for Legion because it's bringing all these massive class overhauls, but at the same time, all these terrible changes like Titanforged sound...terrible.

[PassingBy]

Yes I get what everyone gets... so I'm not too exited about that...
Yes and if I get that bacon cheeseburger it would be great, but if I could buy it for 50 cents more... guess what? I would buy it instead of rolling the dice, because I want the bacon cheeseburger.

You completely missed the golden ring part didn't you?

No, you still need to get the item and farm the valor to get the BIS Item... everybody CAN get everything. equality of opportunity, not of outcome.
It's not "little" rng, it's RNG that takes items from 10% drop chance down to 0.0075%! That's HUGE rng.
Oh no, something you can do to get better gear would be mandatory for things that need better gear? Tell me more about how insane that is.

It's the same with jobs... if you didn't put the time in to get experience, you are more unlikely to be hired. But you want the employer to roll a dice to see if he takes you ore the guy with 25 years of experience, because you don't want to put in the effort.

Seriously man - it is a 0,0075 chance for ONE item.
Nobody in their sane mind will expect you to have this item, or will judge your performance based on having or not that item.

And no item will make or break your performance so that you get kicked, or not kicked out of a guild or a pug.

I have been in raiding more or less competitively since Vanilla, and I have NEVER seen someone get replaced over a guy, that has got some 1 item, that another guy was not lucky to get.
I have seen people kicked for fucking RLs girlfriend, for faking disconnects when they didn't want to wipe on tries of new bosses, for being assholes, for being noobs, for being racist.
I have NEVER seen someone say "hey that guy has 1 good item, that the other guy doesn't, so let's bring him to the raid".

And people used to have things like Atiesh/Twin blades.

So no no one will take your place in a raid just because they got lucky on one item, that is exactly like yours, but with higher ilvl.

And if you want to continue with the real life examples - you go to work, alongside with another guy, you work in a similar companies, you have similar background and skills, as well as experience and education.
Suddenly your boss receives a promotion, or moves to a higher position to another company, and as he knows you and has a good relationship with you - he gives you a better job, while the other guy stays at his job for a longer time.
In the end he hits a ceiling and you manage to make a carreer.
Based on pure luck.

[Ustabil]

Another excellent point for why rng is stupid.

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So, you wouldn't care if they removed the rng either...
You probably would prefer a Valor-based Upgrade System, because you can decide what upgrade you get when so it helps you to get to the content you like faster.

Yes i enjoy the valor upgrades, It makes you feel a little more invested in your gear. Granted i didnt think the just "warforged" RnG we had in SoO was to bad. There it felt like a nice random reward.

What i really dont get tho, if they wanna keep this massive RnG system is how they havent made some sort of sacrifice system, where you can sacrifice same tier items to have a chance of adding socket or WF/titanforged to your gear, that you allready gotten. That way 95% of gear wont get DE'd during farm runs etc.

[Deleted]

Seriously man - it is a 0,0075 chance for ONE item.
Nobody in their sane mind will expect you to have this item, or will judge your performance based on having or not that item.

And no item will make or break your performance so that you get kicked, or not kicked out of a guild or a pug.

I have been in raiding more or less competitively since Vanilla, and I have NEVER seen someone get replaced over a guy, that has got some 1 item, that another guy was not lucky to get.
I have seen people kicked for fucking RLs girlfriend, for faking disconnects when they didn't want to wipe on tries of new bosses, for being assholes, for being noobs, for being racist.
I have NEVER seen someone say "hey that guy has 1 good item, that the other guy doesn't, so let's bring him to the raid".

And people used to have things like Atiesh/Twin blades.

So no no one will take your place in a raid just because they got lucky on one item, that is exactly like yours, but with higher ilvl.

And if you want to continue with the real life examples - you go to work, alongside with another guy, you work in a similar companies, you have similar background and skills, as well as experience and education.
Suddenly your boss receives a promotion, or moves to a higher position to another company, and as he knows you and has a good relationship with you - he gives you a better job, while the other guy stays at his job for a longer time.
In the end he hits a ceiling and you manage to make a carreer.
Based on pure luck.

Okay, what about the 1 in 67 WF item?
And of course they will judge me, if someone else has the item, because he probably does better then me... so I'm screwed because he was lucky and I wasn't.

Yes they will... +75 ItemLevels are a HUGE Deal.

Because up to WoD one item truly was insignificant, with WoD someone with WF + Socket does better then someone without it. And if you need that bit more, he will replace you.
It's not about 1 good item, it's about the same gear expect that 1 good item!

Aetiesh/Twin Blades where class specific... and yes rogues got benched in TBC if they weren't lucky enough to get the Blades.

Higher ILevel and a Socket. Which means better stats, which means more damage/healing or better tanking

Not on pure luck, because I was good friends with my boss... that's called connections. Has nothing to do with luck.

[Deleted]

The whole point valor vs random rare item upgrades is stupid.

Valor farming is a raid-nerf mechanic, whereas random item upgrades is a mean to improve the longevity of content, which would otherwise be irrelevant after a few weeks. OP is missing the point and all of the discussion in thie thread was useless. /thread

[Deleted]

Yes i enjoy the valor upgrades, It makes you feel a little more invested in your gear. Granted i didnt think the just "warforged" RnG we had in SoO was to bad. There it felt like a nice random reward.

What i really dont get tho, if they wanna keep this massive RnG system is how they havent made some sort of sacrifice system, where you can sacrifice same tier items to have a chance of adding socket or WF/titanforged to your gear, that you allready gotten. That way 95% of gear wont get DE'd during farm runs etc.

Because RNG prolongs the game and every option to mitigate the RNG would mean they need to put more content in the game

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The whole point valor vs random rare item upgrades is stupid.

Valor farming is a raid-nerf mechanic, whereas random item upgrades is a mean to improve the longevity of content, which would otherwise be irrelevant after a few weeks. OP is missing the point and all of the discussion in thie thread was useless. /thread

if valor is useful while the raid is current it serves the same purpose has rng loot procs... if I get higher stats from rng or from upgrading my items... in the end I have higher stats. But having the ability to choose which upgrades I get, is better for player engagement

[Ustabil]

Does RnG rly prolong the game. Look at the playerbase. The more RnG they add the more people leave inbetween the patches.