[Spoilers] Intro Scenario to the Invasion involving Karazhan & Ulduar

[Maxilian]

In case you're wondering, I've always been most aligned with vanilla Jaina's pro-peace stance**. On the other hand, I would have had her flood Orgrimmar in "Tides of War" instead of that retarded cop-out at the end, to show the depths of her fall from high-minded supporter of peace to being consumed by hatred & vengeance. Not sure the map / art team (or Horde fans) would've liked that though ...

**Excepting Sylvanus and the Forsaken. They should've been an NPC faction in vanilla WoW IMHO.

And take one of the most interesting faction from the horde? (and neutral? really? why would the alliance work with them?, if they were neutral they would have been dead by now)

- - - Updated - - -

I love how people think that the Alliance leaders should have known what the Horde was doing.

Sylvanas doesn't announce to Varian or the Alliance that they are pulling back. They just do. And somehow Varian dies holding off SOMETHING so we can escape.

Jaina nor anybody else in the Alliance knows exactly what the Horde did. They just saw them suddenly disappear. They aren't omnipotent. Jaina's reaction was completely realistic in the scenario in which it happens.

Since us as outsiders know that reaction is based on false information, some people seem to think that the in-game characters should have. Notice how nobody who argues against Jaina's complaints mentions that the Horde HAD to pull back. Because none of them know that.

Now if Mekkatorque said something about it (since he was there), or if there was a scene where Anduin/Khadgar gets a message from the Horde leadership about what happened, and Jaina still had the same reaction, then she should justifiably be condemned.

But that doesn't happen. And it doesn't seem like anybody who argues against Jaina knows what exactly happened with the Horde pulling back. So her reaction is wholly reasonable.

I normally don't agree with you in other topics (normally non wow related) but you're completely right in this one

[StationaryHawk]

Now from Jaina's point of view, this isn't just about Garrosh any more. On an emotional level, she's lost if not literal friends and family, then people pretty close to her in that regard. But... well WTF was the Horde doing in all this? When Garrosh was plotting to nuke her civilian population and grind Theramore into dust, what were all the sane parts of the Horde doing? Because they sure as heck didn't seem to be helping her, that's for sure. Thrall hands the reins over to Garrosh "Nuke 'Em" Hellscream, and the rest of the Horde stands by as he wipes out her people.

People keep painting it this way, but Theramore was supplying the Alliance war effort on Kalimdor. On top of that, Garrosh intentionally allowed the majority of civilians to escape so as to make it a more military-rich environment. It's just a poor argument at this point.

[Maxilian]

People keep painting it this way, but Theramore was supplying the Alliance war effort on Kalimdor. On top of that, Garrosh intentionally allowed the majority of civilians to escape so as to make it a more military-rich environment. It's just a poor argument at this point.

Yes, just to capture them in their escape boats...

Note: Not trying to defend Jaina, but Garrosh did not let many escape, he was mostly trying to get as many alliances forces in Theramore as he could to take them out in one go

[Teleros]

And take one of the most interesting faction from the horde?

They're somewhat interesting I think, sure... but equally I really don't think they fit into the Horde.

Vol'jin: We be praisin' the spirits of de world, mon.
Thrall: I will return my people to their shamanistic roots.
Cairne: The Earth Mother guides us.
Sylvanus: Braiiiiins...

One of theses is not like the other.

(And yes I know I know I exaggerate for comic effect - and the same thing applies to the Blood Elves - but ever since I've played WoW it's felt a bit ham-fisted... oh well)

(and neutral? really? why would the alliance work with them?, if they were neutral they would have been dead by now)

Not neutral, NPC. I'd have done them as akin to the Dark Iron dwarves or something, maybe with a more reasonable offshoot like the Thorium Brotherhood. Tirisfal Glades etc would've been probably high-level questing zones leading up to a 40-man raid against Sylvanus or something.

But we're way into "what if" territory here .

= + =

People keep painting it this way, but Theramore was supplying the Alliance war effort on Kalimdor. On top of that, Garrosh intentionally allowed the majority of civilians to escape so as to make it a more military-rich environment. It's just a poor argument at this point.

What Jaina believes doesn't have to be true - or even mostly true. If she honestly believes it to be the way I described (and I think she does... at least insofar as a fictional character does actually think :P ), then well... you act based on your beliefs. If you believe in X, you will act on the assumption that X is true, even if it objectively is not true.

That's how you have to approach Jaina's thinking in all this.

[Stormdash]

Where are all these assertions of fact about who left and under what circumstances? None of this "Horde ditched Alliance" stuff has been depicted. Is it all based on NPC hearsay from Genn or Jaina? there is a reason hearsay isn't evidence

The cinematic to be inserted will conclusively depict the God's-eye-view of how the failed assault on the Broken Shore ended. All prior is just wanton speculation.

But what we already have seen conclusively, in the Legion trailer, one should point out that if the Horde had no interest in a hard battle, they could have turned back before the infernal-artillery came in. If Sylvanas personally had an agenda to watch Varian die, she could have done that before he ever reached land, not to mention killed him herself. Those are known narrative facts, that right now trump a lot of headcanon about the Horde showing its heels.

[Maxilian]

They're somewhat interesting I think, sure... but equally I really don't think they fit into the Horde.

Vol'jin: We be praisin' the spirits of de world, mon.
Thrall: I will return my people to their shamanistic roots.
Cairne: The Earth Mother guides us.
Sylvanus: Braiiiiins...

One of theses is not like the other.

But the Forsakens are not like that, Zombies are like that, and you know... you kill those in the Forsaken starting zone, they fit in the Horde as much as any other race, they are outcast, why? cause they are walking corpses!

Not neutral, NPC. I'd have done them as akin to the Dark Iron dwarves or something, maybe with a more reasonable offshoot like the Thorium Brotherhood. Tirisfal Glades etc would've been probably high-level questing zones leading up to a 40-man raid against Sylvanus or something.

But we're way into "what if" territory here .

But it would make sense for the Alliance to go hunt them down (They want Lordaeron back, but what about the Horde? why would they hunt the Forsaken down?)

[tommyhil622]

So... did Magni confirm Azeroth is Elune? apparently the Titan is a she.

[Maxilian]

So... did Magni confirm Azeroth is Elune? apparently the Titan is a she.

No, he did not, he just gave a gender to Azeroth, at least so far...

[tommyhil622]

No, he did not, he just gave a gender to Azeroth, at least so far...

At this point we are in denial, i think it's Elune, it's probably going to be a reveal in Legion at some point.

[Kallisto]

I love how people think that the Alliance leaders should have known what the Horde was doing.

Sylvanas doesn't announce to Varian or the Alliance that they are pulling back. They just do. And somehow Varian dies holding off SOMETHING so we can escape.

Jaina nor anybody else in the Alliance knows exactly what the Horde did. They just saw them suddenly disappear. They aren't omnipotent. Jaina's reaction was completely realistic in the scenario in which it happens.

Since us as outsiders know that reaction is based on false information, some people seem to think that the in-game characters should have. Notice how nobody who argues against Jaina's complaints mentions that the Horde HAD to pull back. Because none of them know that.

Now if Mekkatorque said something about it (since he was there), or if there was a scene where Anduin/Khadgar gets a message from the Horde leadership about what happened, and Jaina still had the same reaction, then she should justifiably be condemned.

But that doesn't happen. And it doesn't seem like anybody who argues against Jaina knows what exactly happened with the Horde pulling back. So her reaction is wholly reasonable.

It's called putting 2+2 together. Horde's interest is the defeat of the legion. Horde fell back. Logic dictates they got overwhelmed and had to retreat. Any other reason is just clear bullshit crammed up by people who have irrational hate.

Sometimes you don't have to be there to know what happened you just have to think logically and without needless emotions.

Instead, she's not thinking. She's emoting. Sure, the Blood Elves might betray Dalaran again (though chances are it'd be a repeat of the purge if they did so), but at least there'd be a Dalaran to betray. "United we stand, divided we fall. And after this is over, I've a nice slender dagger to insert between BElf ribs" should be her thinking. Only she's not thinking, so... yeah. Congratulations Jaina on (a) losing the political fight with Khadgar and (b) turning Dalaran over to the faction of the Kirin Tor that will be most hospitable towards the Horde you hate, thus probably ensuring that the BElves are never kicked out again.

And of course just to cap it off, her principal Alliance ally in all this is Genn Greymane, an old man who's lost his son (and mostly everything else) to the Horde and who under the circumstances might well be happy seeing Azeroth burn if the Horde parts burned first. Let's just say I don't trust either of them to think, you know, rationally.

/headdesk

Wait when did the blood elves ever betray Dalaran at all? First time Dalaran sat around while Garithos ordered execution of Blood Elves for the simple crime of not dying in a needless battle.

Second time Jaina went off the deep end because her break in neutrality was countered by 1 blood elf who broke neutrality the other way. This Blood Elf was not working under the orders of Aethas who has more right to be in Dalaran than someone who still in Blood elf terms is a child.

Genn should put the needs of the world over some petty wish for revenge. If he did Sylvanas "And him too." at the end of Legion towards here I'd be the first to applaud him. But damn timing is key here.

[Melsiren]

I love how people think that the Alliance leaders should have known what the Horde was doing.

Sylvanas doesn't announce to Varian or the Alliance that they are pulling back. They just do. And somehow Varian dies holding off SOMETHING so we can escape.

Jaina nor anybody else in the Alliance knows exactly what the Horde did. They just saw them suddenly disappear. They aren't omnipotent. Jaina's reaction was completely realistic in the scenario in which it happens.

Since us as outsiders know that reaction is based on false information, some people seem to think that the in-game characters should have. Notice how nobody who argues against Jaina's complaints mentions that the Horde HAD to pull back. Because none of them know that.

Now if Mekkatorque said something about it (since he was there), or if there was a scene where Anduin/Khadgar gets a message from the Horde leadership about what happened, and Jaina still had the same reaction, then she should justifiably be condemned.

But that doesn't happen. And it doesn't seem like anybody who argues against Jaina knows what exactly happened with the Horde pulling back. So her reaction is wholly reasonable.

Perhaps it's just the fact I'm completely fascinated with military tactics and famous battles, so I might be biased here.

I think it's pretty obvious what a route/taticalretreat/retreat is to any one who has any experience commanding. It's obvious what the Horde did, in a military situation if you had some sort of force covering your flank and suddenly an army/whatever emerges from that flank and gets you one of two things most likely happened. 1.) They failed to hold the line and were defeated. 2.) They were forced to route/a retreat order was sounded.

It's just the most logical conclusion.

Instead of doing the stupid treachery mindset the Alliance should just feel the Horde don't make good fallback plans.


Though maybe you're right, there's always the possibility that Blizzard could make all these Military Leaders incompetent to force more petty bullshit way over done faction conflict.

I just want to throw this out there, it really speaks volumes for Jaina's paranoia that she really thinks that in the face of a planetary invasion that will lead to the end of the world that she thinks it's more likely against such an overwhelming powerful enemy that the Horde was more likely to have some how betrayed them, then be overpowered.

Edit:

I'd be okay with this all honestly if Jaina was the only one who felt this way, I actually like Jaina as a character and feel her response given her character was reasonable. However given Rogers response and Greymane, it feels odd to me. Though maybe those two might be capitalizing on said confusion to advance their own personal agendas.

Do we know how Anduin feels on the situation?

[Daralii]

At this point we are in denial, i think it's Elune, it's probably going to be a reveal in Legion at some point.

Elune's seemingly as old as the universe and created the naaru, or at least the first of them. It's more likely that Azeroth is the Earth Mother.

[Kallisto]

Do we know how Anduin feels on the situation?

If I read rightly Anduin Tells those pushing for war to basically shut the fuck up and says they are not to attack horde unless provoked. Which Greymane ignores and attacks the Forsaken anyway.

[Melsiren]

If I read rightly Anduin Tells those pushing for war to basically shut the fuck up and says they are not to attack horde unless provoked. Which Greymane ignores and attacks the Forsaken anyway.

Hmmm, so we have internal conflict within the Alliance.

Interesting, knowing this I change my stance slightly.

[Deleted]

I love how people think that the Alliance leaders should have known what the Horde was doing.

Sylvanas doesn't announce to Varian or the Alliance that they are pulling back. They just do. And somehow Varian dies holding off SOMETHING so we can escape.

Jaina nor anybody else in the Alliance knows exactly what the Horde did. They just saw them suddenly disappear. They aren't omnipotent. Jaina's reaction was completely realistic in the scenario in which it happens.

Since us as outsiders know that reaction is based on false information, some people seem to think that the in-game characters should have. Notice how nobody who argues against Jaina's complaints mentions that the Horde HAD to pull back. Because none of them know that.

Now if Mekkatorque said something about it (since he was there), or if there was a scene where Anduin/Khadgar gets a message from the Horde leadership about what happened, and Jaina still had the same reaction, then she should justifiably be condemned.

But that doesn't happen. And it doesn't seem like anybody who argues against Jaina knows what exactly happened with the Horde pulling back. So her reaction is wholly reasonable.

This doesn't even make the slightest shred of sense to be honest, for three reasons:

1- Jaina shouldn't expect a backstabbing in a situation where the Horde is in a grave situation as the Alliance. She is making herself sound extremely idiotic by assuming there is a hidden agenda behind the Horde retreating. What agenda, exactly? They want the Legion to destroy the Alliance and then magically leaves Azeroth for the Horde to rule? Or she thought that the Horde would somehow benefit from the destruction of the Alliance, and then defeat the Legion on their own? She thinks the Horde can pull this shit off? If they could defeat the Legion on their own, they would have wiped out the Alliance over ten years ago at this point. There is absolutely no benefit in a backstabbing, and Jaina knows this, she is just being an unreasonable person.

2- What you want the Horde to do:

"We are being wrecked and wiped out. Our first priority is to tell those Alliance guys though. Hey guys, do we have a bunch of straws? Whoever pulls the shortest one go and spread the word. Oh, and you might get fell-crapped upon and die. Forget the straws; let us take a moment and discuss who is the the most noble soul we have to go die while telling the Alliance about our retreat. But hey, even when we find you, oh noble soul, be sure to die AFTER you deliver the message. We NEED to let the Alliance guys know."

What the Horde did:

"We are being wrecked and wiped out. Our first priority is to make a tactical retreat, and pray that the Alliance are smart enough to do the same."

3- Now, they could have told them AFTER the fact. But what would have this achieved? First of all, they realized that the Alliance are being set no matter what on the idea of the Horde betraying, and on the outside even if the Alliance themselves isn't convinced of this, as I really doubt the Alliance is that stupid, this is the stance they are taking on the outside. Of course the Horde will embrace the mentality of "screw it, we don't need to show them any sort of curtsy" even if they genuinely feel sorry about Varian. This "how things looks" go both ways.

Hmmm, so we have internal conflict within the Alliance.

Interesting, knowing this I change my stance slightly.

But but the Alliance is the perfect and noble faction that is fighting the savage Hoardez!! We pride ourselves with our unity!!!

Face it, there haven't been a unity in the Alliance since Cataclysm at least. The Council of the Three Hammers is an uneasy pact. Genn has his personal agenda and joined out of pure interest, not out of loyalty, and his true colors are being revealed from what we saw.

[Daralii]

If I read rightly Anduin Tells those pushing for war to basically shut the fuck up and says they are not to attack horde unless provoked. Which Greymane ignores and attacks the Forsaken anyway.

Good. The faction's lacked internal conflict for a long time, and it's not in Genn's character to be a lapdog to another king. You can kind of excuse Varian because he was the Scion of Goldrinn, but not Anduin.

[Melsiren]

Now, they could have told them AFTER the fact. But what would have this achieved? First of all, they realized that the Alliance are being set no matter what on the idea of the Horde betraying, and on the outside even if the Alliance themselves isn't convinced of this, as I really doubt the Alliance is that stupid, this is the stance they are taking on the outside. Of course the Horde will embrace the mentality of "screw it, we don't need to show them any sort of curtsy" even if they genuinely feel sorry about Varian. This "how things looks" go both ways.

I just feel they wanted a reason to justify faction conflict again I mean realistically I can't see everyone in the Horde refusing to extend an olive branch to the Alliance in such a dire time. A complete lack of communication is odd, even more so that it does not even seem Anduin cares to communicate with the Horde for more details.


What I would like.....

*drifts into the magical fanfiction/headcannon forest*

A conspiracy be at play within the Alliance, I'm not asking for a full blown civil war, but I do feel that Greymane, Rogers, and Jaina all have potential to manipulate things since it's clear they all think Anduin is too soft. Perhaps a messenger was scent to Orgimmar and they were returned to Stormwind as a corpse... because some one intentionally wanted to make it look like the Horde is not in the mood to talk.

Or.... Perhaps Orgimmar sent a courier and they never made it to their destination.

*Drifts back to reality*

I like internal political faction conflict, it's one of the things I adored about the Horde in Cata.

Good. The faction's lacked internal conflict for a long time, and it's not in Genn's character to be a lapdog to another king. You can kind of excuse Varian because he was the Scion of Goldrinn, but not Anduin.

First of all, we have the same person as our avatar, and we pretty much said the same thing around the same time.......

Second of all, agreed. It's very much so in Genn's character to do what he wants, he has no respect for Anduin and it's pretty clear with Rogers working with him there's members of the Alliance Military who see his mindset more fit.

[Deleted]

@Melsiren That is the thing; even if they wanted to extend an olive branch, which is most likely at least from the side of Baine or Lor'themar, or heck, even Sylvanas in curtsy despite her being evil, they won't anymore if they were met with an initial aggression. I know for a fact if for example someone dear to you died, and I wanted to come offer my condolence, but I heard that you are badmouthing me in the funeral for whatever reason, that I would change my mind.

[Melsiren]

@Melsiren That is the thing; even if they wanted to extend an olive branch, which is most likely at least from the side of Baine or Lor'themar, or heck, even Sylvanas in curtsy despite her being evil, they won't anymore if they were met with an initial aggression. I know for a fact if for example someone dear to you died, and I wanted to come offer my condolence, but I heard that you are badmouthing me in the funeral for whatever reason, that I would change my mind.

I just wish they'd give faction conflict a solid break is all.

At this point it feels more than just forced.

[mysticx]

If I read rightly Anduin Tells those pushing for war to basically shut the fuck up and says they are not to attack horde unless provoked. Which Greymane ignores and attacks the Forsaken anyway.

The problem is that the horde did things in the course of the past years that can't be swept under the rug as easily as Anduin seems to think, and the conflict that creates might make the alliance story [gasp] somewhat interesting!