[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[Xequecal]

A boss can definitely outdps a beacon heal. Or even a few beacon healers. Beacon-and-forget is gone.

The 'smoothing' ends very soon into the fight when your stagger ticks do as much/more than a boss melee swing each tick. Even with a full mastery build, you're probably going to take 3 hits in a row, each bringing you to red stagger. You have 1-2 globals between each swing to restore your brew. The Celestalon situation is about how it works, except that you have 0-1 Ox orbs and the Celestalon happens every five seconds.

The bolded part is actually the opposite. Brewmasters are too strong in 5mans. You don't even need a group unless you're pulling foolishly or in high mythic. The rest of the group are remora to your shark.

How is this even possible? If you take four hits every 10 seconds at 80% stagger, your stagger will be ticking for 32% of a boss' swing each tick. If you have to soak a massive boss ability akin to glaive thrust, then sure, purify that, but purifying regular melee? It's not going to reach the point where it threatens to gib you. The tank that takes 40% of a boss' swing every second and basically doesn't take damage otherwise is pretty much the ideal situation from the healers' perspectives.

Seriously, 80% stagger (I said 65% before because I was sure I saw the base as 20% at one point, but it's actually 35%) is in the territory where mythic raids want you because you can tank the boss' enrage if you just get enough heals spammed onto you, letting them drag the fight out for another 30 seconds. It's going to result in guilds 1-tanking encounters and adding a healer because that stagger level lets you completely ignore mechanics that would 1-shot other tanks.

[keqe]

How is this even possible? If you take four hits every 10 seconds at 80% stagger, your stagger will be ticking for 32% of a boss' swing each tick. If you have to soak a massive boss ability akin to glaive thrust, then sure, purify that, but purifying regular melee? It's not going to reach the point where it threatens to gib you. The tank that takes 40% of a boss' swing every second and basically doesn't take damage otherwise is pretty much the ideal situation from the healers' perspectives.

Seriously, 80% stagger (I said 65% before because I was sure I saw the base as 20% at one point, but it's actually 35%) is in the territory where mythic raids want you because you can tank the boss' enrage if you just get enough heals spammed onto you, letting them drag the fight out for another 30 seconds. It's going to result in guilds 1-tanking encounters and adding a healer because that stagger level lets you completely ignore mechanics that would 1-shot other tanks.

I think it was Madgod who did some math that in a situation where you take enough hit damage hits, the stagger damage will ramp up enough to "burst" you in similar way to regular attack in addition to doing DTPS to you. So eventually if you don't purify the burst window between using IsB and not using it will be about the same.

Mastery of course slows this, but I think it still happened.


About the WoD brewmaster buffs, you can even check the Brewmaster guide thread in this forum and see people reporting the guard buff at 25. November, before the notes even were released.

[Leblue]

I think it was Madgod who did some math that in a situation where you take enough hit damage hits, the stagger damage will ramp up enough to "burst" you in similar way to regular attack in addition to doing DTPS to you. So eventually if you don't purify the burst window between using IsB and not using it will be about the same.

Mastery of course slows this, but I think it still happened.


About the WoD brewmaster buffs, you can even check the Brewmaster guide thread in this forum and see people reporting the guard buff at 25. November, before the notes even were released.

Yeah it was Madgod who did the spreadsheet, if you look up his profile you'll see it in there. That said he doesn't account for dodge or anything at all so it'll definitely be a lot slower than it is and also doesn't account that a lot of bosses and even normal trash mobs cast abilities which lets stagger bleed off. Either tonight or tomorrow night I'll finally start heroics and I'm probably going to keep my gear set of roughly 810 just to get the best idea I can for low level heroics (I should probably apologize in advance to my healers). Still, you won't rack up stagger so fast that that becomes a major issue unless you're getting trucked by massive physical hits that're meant to be cooldowned through and planned around anyway and even those would have to be incredibly frequent. Going off what I've seen from normals, Deepbeard might come close.

I play beta to find problems. When I find the problems that prevent further play, report them, and they're broken for a month after that, it's a problem. If it doesn't get fixed, how can anyone know if there are more bugs further up the quest line? Having to wait weeks for them to fix a bug so you can move on to the next bug that takes weeks to fix is pretty lazy. Crunching every bit of fixing into the last 28 days until the patch goes to the PTR seems ill-planned.

The game is going to have bugs regardless. Some are more gamebreaking than others. At this stage of beta, something like part of the order hall questline being broken isn't going to stop you from experiencing the majority of the game as annoying as this is and I'm sure it'll be fixed before PTR goes up (I hope).

I have no fuckin clue what a Dave is, though.

Black Ox Statue.

[stross01]

Black Ox Statue.

Why is it called Dave? Why isn't it "Black Ox Statue"?

Also, Nithogg's damage/casting priority was greatly altered. He now hits a tank for mythic dungeon boss damage and spends a glorious amount of time casting. His AOE damage is still very potent, however. No idea about the other bosses, as I cannot stay connected again.

Also, the "world boss dc" problem you encounter is most likely the demon hunter ability that does all of those graphical glitches. The sheets of solid colors that whirl around and shit. There's a group of idiots that spam it nonstop on the PVP realm at peak hours to crash anyone nearby.

[Ultramad]

Why is it called Dave? Why isn't it "Black Ox Statue"?

Also, Nithogg's damage/casting priority was greatly altered. He now hits a tank for mythic dungeon boss damage and spends a glorious amount of time casting. His AOE damage is still very potent, however. No idea about the other bosses, as I cannot stay connected again.

Also, the "world boss dc" problem you encounter is most likely the demon hunter ability that does all of those graphical glitches. The sheets of solid colors that whirl around and shit. There's a group of idiots that spam it nonstop on the PVP realm at peak hours to crash anyone nearby.

Someone came up with the name Dave way back in the early highmaul days and it just stuck.

I for one miss my perma-dave and so will my raid. I remember times where I'd just put down dave and he'd hold aggro off all our dps and live longer than most tanks. Wonderful Dave.

Finally got to 110 and man, do I love BrM in an open world setting. I can pull freaking everything at once. Delicious. Still gearing up to do heroics/mythics though. WTS Career.

[stross01]

Someone came up with the name Dave way back in the early highmaul days and it just stuck.

I for one miss my perma-dave and so will my raid. I remember times where I'd just put down dave and he'd hold aggro off all our dps and live longer than most tanks. Wonderful Dave.

Finally got to 110 and man, do I love BrM in an open world setting. I can pull freaking everything at once. Delicious. Still gearing up to do heroics/mythics though. WTS Career.

Maybe it's just the 2-3 brewmasters that visit this subforum. I've played brewmaster quite a bit and never had any abilities personified. :P

If you've got a premade group, you should just zone into the Mythics at 800-810. You'll need to pull cautiously, but it's not much harder than heroic and offers good loot.

Also, make sure to trade any unwanted gear between your group-mates. It doesn't say you can trade it, but you can. Tinfoil hats say that there's a hidden check involved, saying you can't trade gear unless the intended person has an equal or lesser ilvl in that slot equipped at the time of the kill or something convoluted like that.

[Leblue]

It's certainly more of an inside joke for sure so apologies for the lack of clarity. Also good to know Demon Hunters are breaking things on a world scale. Nerfs please.

[v1perz53]

How is this even possible? If you take four hits every 10 seconds at 80% stagger, your stagger will be ticking for 32% of a boss' swing each tick. If you have to soak a massive boss ability akin to glaive thrust, then sure, purify that, but purifying regular melee? It's not going to reach the point where it threatens to gib you. The tank that takes 40% of a boss' swing every second and basically doesn't take damage otherwise is pretty much the ideal situation from the healers' perspectives.

Seriously, 80% stagger (I said 65% before because I was sure I saw the base as 20% at one point, but it's actually 35%) is in the territory where mythic raids want you because you can tank the boss' enrage if you just get enough heals spammed onto you, letting them drag the fight out for another 30 seconds. It's going to result in guilds 1-tanking encounters and adding a healer because that stagger level lets you completely ignore mechanics that would 1-shot other tanks.

I think what you're ignoring is that 100% of a boss's swing to a BrM versus 100% of a boss's swing to a, say, paladin are two different values. All of the passive defense values of Stance of the Ox are gone, so a Monk that somehow staggers nothing (impossible because there is 35% stagger baked in) would take the same damage per hit as a Rogue. Versus something like a pally with more armor from plate + shield, as well as passive DR from sanctuary. Even a DH has a passive that increases armor. Stagger isn't taking the amount of damage another tank would be taking from a hit and only letting you take 20% of it, it is taking the amount of damage a non-tank would take from a hit and delaying 80% of it. So you can't say four hits would tick for 32% of a boss's swing each tick, it would tick for 32% of a boss's swing on a rogue per tick.

A.K.A. without purifying any stagger, as a Monk in legion your total damage taken would be equal to a DPS class, as you aren't actually mitigating any damage, just smoothing it. Now this isn't entirely true, as we have avoidance from mastery and things that actively reduce damage taken in artifact talents, but baseline the idea stands. If you watch videos of Monks tanking dungeons, you will see that even on very regular 5 man AoE pulls you can literally max out the Stagger bar, meaning taking your entire health bar in damage over 10 seconds on top of whatever the mobs are hitting you for. And that's in a 5 man normal, if you don't think you're gonna need to purify I just think you're failing to completely understand how things have changed in Legion. I hope I explained myself well enough, thoughts felt a bit scattered.

[Cubcake]

Maybe it's just the 2-3 brewmasters that visit this subforum. I've played brewmaster quite a bit and never had any abilities personified. :P

If you've got a premade group, you should just zone into the Mythics at 800-810. You'll need to pull cautiously, but it's not much harder than heroic and offers good loot.

Also, make sure to trade any unwanted gear between your group-mates. It doesn't say you can trade it, but you can. Tinfoil hats say that there's a hidden check involved, saying you can't trade gear unless the intended person has an equal or lesser ilvl in that slot equipped at the time of the kill or something convoluted like that.

If I had to guess, I would say out of the people that main BrM currently in a semi-hardcore or higher level, the personification is probably known to at least 50% of us. Seems most people I have chatted with know what I am talking about when I mention Dave. Hail the all mighty Dave!

[Leblue]

I ran around briefly last night and noticed a lot of the world bosses haven't been put in or there's a rotation I'm unaware of for them. Locations would be appreciated!

[stross01]

I ran around briefly last night and noticed a lot of the world bosses haven't been put in or there's a rotation I'm unaware of for them. Locations would be appreciated!

They were all up when I did them after the new build, except for the one in southern Azsuna. They are usually all world objectives with golden dragons.

[Loganmar]

Yeah it was Madgod who did the spreadsheet, if you look up his profile you'll see it in there. That said he doesn't account for dodge or anything at all so it'll definitely be a lot slower than it is and also doesn't account that a lot of bosses and even normal trash mobs cast abilities which lets stagger bleed off.

Not only does it not account for the dodges, etc but the math is also wrong. If you sum the DTPS (column M) from stagger you get 2,347,846 when you should get 1,700,000. That means that somehow he added 647,846 in the stagger dot.

Side note does stagger tick every .5 secs or every sec?

[keqe]

Side note does stagger tick every .5 secs or every sec?

Every 0.5 seconds yes.

[Loganmar]

I just checked the other spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=812839891) thinking maybe the Legion Stagger Spreadsheet was outdated and it was also wrong more than doubling the damage of the stagger dot with the sum of DTPS of stagger being 13,981,713.38 and the expected value being 6,375,000.00. Maybe I am understanding something wrong, if so I am sorry.

[Deleted]

Has anyone done any testing in Special Delivery?I'd like to know how the drop location works.
Is it a random target in radius around you?Is it only enemies you are currently fighting?Can it drop in an empty area without enemies?

[stross01]

Has anyone done any testing in Special Delivery?I'd like to know how the drop location works.
Is it a random target in radius around you?Is it only enemies you are currently fighting?Can it drop in an empty area without enemies?

Random on anything you are in comdat with. Not sure of the exact yards, but pretty damn far.

[Saiyoran]

Apparently it can target critters. Neat ability...

[v1perz53]

I'd probably like Special Delivery better if it was 100% chance and damage balanced accordingly, as it would give the Defense -> Offense tradeoff I've wanted, in that you could use ISB when you didn't need it for more damage. Still not exactly what I had in mind, but at least thinking about it this way makes it slightly more interesting than what it actually is, which is random boring more damage that ends up totally ineffective a lot of times.

[keqe]

Special Delivery is probably intended to be a boring and possibly slightly worse talent compared to the alternatives as it is passive and automatic, which is the way they wanted for talents to work. I doubt they intended it to be a way to turn brew charges into damage as primary function.

[v1perz53]

Oh I'm sure it wasn't intended to be any kind of DPS/surv trade off, though it does to a tiny degree allow that as designed. Though there was the discussion in the WW thread that the idea that a talent row has one option that is basically "passive but worse than all other options, so newbies take it" is awful and can't really exist, as it basically makes it a 2 talent row. Balance wise, RJW should be best for AoE but probably worse than SD for ST (though things get a little odd since ST is also technically an AoE), and Niuzao is in an odd spot depending on how they make the taunt work. The whole row is kind of hard to compare, but I kind of like it since you can chose more based on flavor than functionality (RJW to fill gaps in rotation, SD for minor surv/DPS tradeoff potential, Niuzao for a kind of DPS CDish). I still wonder how Niuzao will end up, there was a time where it was taunting bosses but also never changing targets, so I'll really have to play with that one to see. The idea of using it as a tank CD if it can taunt bosses is interesting, but I also don't hate the idea of it as a mostly DPS CD that taunts non-bosses.

Speaking of DPS CDs, the more I think about it the more I really want ToD back. Pretty upset about that, I always found it to be better as a BrM ability than WW because of scaling with HP. Would fill a niche BrM needs by giving a small baseline damage CD like pallies or wars have while also being very simple and straightforward like all monk abilities now (only partially tongue in cheek).