BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Deleted]

Surprised to see a lack of debate about this.
b) TTIP, specifically the introduction of ISDS (Investor State Dispute Settlements), which would allow companies to sue governments if those governments’ policies cause a loss of profits. A spectacular devaluation of democratic process, especially considering how the Tories are busy privatising the NHS. Enter Corbyn and then a host of American lawyers will be taking billions from the public purse. Completely unacceptable. TTIP fails to take into account ongoing variations in local political opinion.

In almost every point you're wrong, but I keep seeing this one raised and it really fucking annoys me.

Last time I read about it, TIIP in it's current form is dead in the water due to the French rejecting it due to popular negative opinion. Our own (UK) government supported TIIP wholeheartedly, and people want to put them in the driving seat for future negotiations?

And regarding those negotiations, it's pretty much guaranteed our economy is going to be trashed in the short term. Unfortunately, any trade agreements we need to negotiate will need to be negotiated pretty sharpish - and due to the trashing we're going to get our negotiations will be from not just a position of weakness, but one of outright desperation. How exactly are we going to leverage favourable trade treaties? Ask nicely?

[Cien]

*snip*

This actually seems the most reasonable argument for this referendum even with the political parties on both sides fear mongering. One step towards a brexit I think!

[Deleted]

snip

You keep using Switzerland as an example, but the Swiss have to follow every rule that the EU throws at them if they want to be part of these trade deals.

How will we be any different?

[Deleted]

i hope britain will leave EU. they already being treated better than everybody else. ( paying less taxes etc.) and they still want more.
i hope BREXIT will coem true and the britain will fall from their high horse.

[dribbles]

Unfortunately, any trade agreements we need to negotiate will need to be negotiated pretty sharpish

We have plenty of time to negotiate trade deals. The 2 year clock that starts the countdown to Britain leaving the EU starts ticking after we serve notice to leave, not from the day after the referendum. We could have the referendum on June 23, vote leave, and not serve notice to start the 2 year countdown until 2020.

[Slant]

We have plenty of time to negotiate trade deals. The 2 year clock that starts the countdown to Britain leaving the EU starts ticking after we serve notice to leave, not from the day after the referendum. We could have the referendum on June 23, vote leave, and not serve notice to start the 2 year countdown until 2020.

Yeah that would make you referendum a joke. And cameron too.

[Teleros]

You keep using Switzerland as an example, but the Swiss have to follow every rule that the EU throws at them if they want to be part of these trade deals.

Not exactly: some of Switzerland's trade with the EU falls under EFTA rules; however if Switzerland wants to negotiate something on top of that, then it sits down with EU diplomats and figures something out. When selling to the EU, it must of course meet all EU regulations (barring some kind of deal that exempts them from specific ones I guess?), but that's normal in all cases of international trade.

On the other hand, Norway & the other EFTA members are also a part of the EEA, which means that, unlike the Swiss, they have to implement a whole bunch of other regulations and such. Hence why I single out Switzerland.

How will we be any different?

We won't be.

[Deleted]

We have plenty of time to negotiate trade deals. The 2 year clock that starts the countdown to Britain leaving the EU starts ticking after we serve notice to leave, not from the day after the referendum. We could have the referendum on June 23, vote leave, and not serve notice to start the 2 year countdown until 2020.

Uhuh, financial markets respond really well to prolonged uncertainty.

[Deleted]

Not exactly: some of Switzerland's trade with the EU falls under EFTA rules; however if Switzerland wants to negotiate something on top of that, then it sits down with EU diplomats and figures something out. When selling to the EU, it must of course meet all EU regulations (barring some kind of deal that exempts them from specific ones I guess?), but that's normal in all cases of international trade.

On the other hand, Norway & the other EFTA members are also a part of the EEA, which means that, unlike the Swiss, they have to implement a whole bunch of other regulations and such. Hence why I single out Switzerland.


We won't be.

So we currently have a pretty sweet deal in the EU as it is, with a bunch of perks, and we should swap this out for a worse deal, in which we get no perks?

Whats stopping us starting this Commonwealth Free Trade Area if we remain in the EU? Surely it would be even stronger if we were in the EU because thats even more of a market for the rest of the Commonwealth to trade to, and vice versa.

[dribbles]

Yeah that would make you referendum a joke. And cameron too.

Cameron is already a joke - and toast after the referendum whichever way it goes.

On the referendum why in Germany are you not allowed one? not democratic enough there? After Cologne I suppose no woman would vote to remain and you'd be out of the EU too.

[Mayhem]

After Cologne I suppose no woman would vote to remain and you'd be out of the EU too.

Exactly what has the incident in cologne todo with the EU?

[dribbles]

Exactly what has the incident in cologne todo with the EU?

Um Cologne is in and a victim of the EU's policies?

[Deleted]

Um Cologne is in and a victim of the EU's policies?

Which EU policy, specifically?

[Mayhem]

Um Cologne is in and a victim of the EU's policies?

Howso?

[dribbles]

Which EU policy, specifically?

Mother Merkels uncontrolled immigration of unemployed people incompatible with Western society.

[Soxoffender]

Via Jo Maugham:
There are currently an estimated 209,000 worker paid below the minimum wage in the UK.
https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/up...egulations.pdf

Mike Ashley has admitted today that Sports Direct warehouse staff earned less than the minimum wage and Unite have revealed that some of Ashley's staff were paid through a pre-paid debit card. They were charged £10 to get the card, a £10-a-month management fee, 75p to use it at an ATM machine and 10p when they got a text message confirming they had used it. Sports Direct's costs were £2 per month per card.

Obviously it's EU migrants driving down wages though...

[Noradin]

NP, here you go the informations all in here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ave-or-remain/

I would help you further but as you're the only person in the thread who needs the info and you're being a jerk, have fun.

Sorry but you are just outright lying. I have read this thread, the information is not in here.
So just for the record: You have no sources for your claims and/or refuse to offer any.

Linking yourself is not considered a source. Nor is circular link to the beginning of this thread.

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That´s not an answer to my question. Protection from what?

Just wait he will deflect for a few pages, then link you the beginning of this very thread claiming "all the information you ask for is in there."

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So let's see what might happen.

• First off, the UK leaves the EU and negotiates with Norway, Iceland, Switzerland and Lichtenstein to (re-)join the EFTA.
• Separately, it negotiates a bilateral treaty with the EU for free trade in services (or nearly free trade in services, depending on the level of opposition to the City of London's dominant position). It can probably count on the other EFTA countries backing it in this, so they can trade via London etc.
• Free trade with all the European nations (via the EFTA) is maintained. The US, China etc are all limited in how high their tariffs can be on UK goods etc, as the UK is a WTO member.
• After that, focus on trade agreements with China, Russia, and the USA. There's always the WTO fallback position, so these treaties can't be too bad. Negotiations are likely to go quicker than they would for the EU, because the UK has historically disliked onerous regulations & the like.
• After those, get some other trade agreements, eg with Commonwealth nations etc etc etc.

But hey, go ahead and keep putting words in my mouth. Dishonesty is a strong force!

You do know that you have that backwards, yes?
You think the EFTA will let the UK play them against the EU?
Why would they do that?

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This actually seems the most reasonable argument for this referendum even with the political parties on both sides fear mongering. One step towards a brexit I think!

You should look at his points again and think.

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We have plenty of time to negotiate trade deals. The 2 year clock that starts the countdown to Britain leaving the EU starts ticking after we serve notice to leave, not from the day after the referendum. We could have the referendum on June 23, vote leave, and not serve notice to start the 2 year countdown until 2020.

If you try that one I can gurarantee you that the other EU member states will do everything to destroy you economically just as you are trying to do to them.

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On the referendum why in Germany are you not allowed one? not democratic enough there? After Cologne I suppose no woman would vote to remain and you'd be out of the EU too.

They are more democratic than the UK, so they do not have a need for one.
And what has Cologne to do with it?
Are you labouring under the delusion that the treaties about asylum are somehow due to EU membership?
Think again. And on that note: Don't think that leaving the EU would dissolve you from the duty to grant asylum to anyone who asks with a justified reason. That is a very different set ot treaties that has nothing to do with the EU. The only difference leaving will make is that you won't be able to ask other EU members to take them anymore. You will be alone.

[caervek]

Sorry but you are just outright lying.

No I'm not.

I have read this thread, the information is not in here.

Now you're lying, if you had read the thread you would have found the quotes about UKIP disowning the 2010 manifesto after Farage became leader later that year.

[Noradin]

No I'm not.

Now you're lying, if you had read the thread you would have found the quotes about UKIP disowning the 2010 manifesto after Farage became leader later that year.

If they were there maybe I would have. But they aren't. Feel free to disprove this by linking them.
I'm not obligated to prove the non-existance of sources for your claims in this thread. It is on you to provide sources for your claims.
Just deflecting for a few pages then linking the beginning of the thread with another unsubstantiated claim of "they are in there somewhere" is just dishonest on your part. (But most likely surprisen no one.)

[caervek]

Cameron is already a joke - and toast after the referendum whichever way it goes.

He was a joke before, however no matter which way the referendum goes he will almost certainly stay in power until 2020 when he intends to retire, that or drop out early to let the public get used to his successor like Blair did.