[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Daralii]

It's still a wonder why Blade of Wrath/Justice isn't a charging strike. Why give us a weirdo ranged blade coming from the ground? 12 sec CD mini-charge would help just a little, especially if Horse was baseline.

Isn't the effect just a random sword from T11 even?

[Ashelorh]

Rotation would be fine IMO if the judgement window wasn't a thing, you have like maybe 15% downtime if you ignore judgement window. Could be fixed by removing the debuff or making it 100% uptime.

[siccora]

the judgement buff reminds me of the live ele problem. switching targets is a pain. and i fear that the same problem will accure with rets. i dont like that judgement dmg buff idea. DH on the other hand can just swap whenever they want. no judgement cd would be great.

[Teleros]

no judgement cd would be great.

Judgement does far too much damage to be an instant-cast ability with no CD.

[Ashelorh]

Judgement does far too much damage to be an instant-cast ability with no CD.

Could lower the damage.

[Deleted]

Could lower the damage.

What would be the point of Judgment if it had no cooldown? Some people seem to think Blizzard are thinking of reverting back to the old mastery. Now let's say they did, what on earth would be the point of Judgment then? In Legion, it exists only to apply this debuff (would still work as a buff but what the hell). If this had no cooldown then the debuff serves no real purpose except as an annoyance to cast on mobs before HP spenders. A bit like maintaining shuffle for BMs but with no real point.

[Ashelorh]

What would be the point of Judgment if it had no cooldown? Some people seem to think Blizzard are thinking of reverting back to the old mastery. Now let's say they did, what on earth would be the point of Judgment then? In Legion, it exists only to apply this debuff (would still work as a buff but what the hell). If this had no cooldown then the debuff serves no real purpose except as an annoyance to cast on mobs before HP spenders. A bit like maintaining shuffle for BMs but with no real point.

Don't know. I'd rather judgement window just not be there, personally. But the way it is right now where you wait until you have judgement to spend holy power is really uninteresting, IMO. Just saying that if the damage would be too high to remove the cooldown on it, they could just lower the damage.

[Deleted]

What would be the point of Judgment if it had no cooldown? Some people seem to think Blizzard are thinking of reverting back to the old mastery. Now let's say they did, what on earth would be the point of Judgment then? In Legion, it exists only to apply this debuff (would still work as a buff but what the hell). If this had no cooldown then the debuff serves no real purpose except as an annoyance to cast on mobs before HP spenders. A bit like maintaining shuffle for BMs but with no real point.

Its a design with mechanical problems. No cooldown wouldn't solve the problem, but having charges might make it better. These are band aids though. The base problem needs to be solved or this will always be a sticking point.

I do like the idea of reverting back to the old mastery though. Actually, i would be fine with getting rid of the whole judgement debuff thing. It's just a complication that doesn't really make the spec more fun to play or does it solve the issues they said were reported with the spec (only feeling great at times, feeling like generators hit like wet noodles).

All in all, this redesign just doesn't please anyone but the very "proud" designer at blizzard.

[Thundering]

Don't know. I'd rather judgement window just not be there, personally. But the way it is right now where you wait until you have judgement to spend holy power is really uninteresting, IMO. Just saying that if the damage would be too high to remove the cooldown on it, they could just lower the damage.

I think holy power would be more fun if it was a real builder too do something really cool, as a long semi long cooldown or a long cooldown. Instead of a standard rotation.

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Its a design with mechanical problems. No cooldown wouldn't solve the problem, but having charges might make it better. These are band aids though. The base problem needs to be solved or this will always be a sticking point.

I do like the idea of reverting back to the old mastery though. Actually, i would be fine with getting rid of the whole judgement debuff thing. It's just a complication that doesn't really make the spec more fun to play or does it solve the issues they said were reported with the spec (only feeling great at times, feeling like generators hit like wet noodles).

All in all, this redesign just doesn't please anyone but the very "proud" designer at blizzard.

Well they failed whit the battlehealer concept since they dident really try and now we seem stuck bettwen two worlds & it does not work.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Could just do Hand of Light mastery but add Judgement into the mix of the abilities that benefit from Mastery. CS,BoW,Judgement,TV It can work. I don't necessarily expect it though, they might just lower the cooldowns of abilities or put different talents in. Either way.... they need to listen.

If Reg turns out to be right well....




You're still allowed to throw food at him

[Demsi]

I really dont want Hand of light mastery back, it was boring as hell, i find the new mastery much more interesting

[Snegovik]

better they do that now than 2 weeks after release. I just want to remind you of the wotlk launch. ret is still paying for it if they do that to prot as well we will have 2 useless speccs in pve and pvp. Don´t give in to the illusion that a paladin pvp nerf will only affect pvp. PVE will suffer and then suffer hard.
Do you really want to see Paladin back to classic times? healer only, everything else is a waste of a character slot.

Don´t understand me wrong I´d love to see us somewhere else as the end of the food-chain but I fear what might come of it.

Sorry i was just pessimistic in that post, honestly this close to release and so many issues at hand, i truly do NOT believe blizzard will fix our spec; hence, might as well play prot = broken OP spec for few month get R1-Glad/mounts then just call it a day, go out in a glory =) when both specs are ruined.
P.S. @Reghame I wish i could have the same level of optimism as you, but my gut tells me that this is it guys, another xpac of Ret being a joke at least in PvP =)

[Ashelorh]

I really dont want Hand of light mastery back, it was boring as hell, i find the new mastery much more interesting

I can see why you'd think that, it's a pretty boring mastery. I'm not sure why but I really like it. If it was a simple "your abilities deal X% bonus damage" I probably wouldn't like it either, but since it's another number I like it. I disagree about the new mastery though, it isn't really interesting either, it's only a damage increase too. But since it's linked to judgement window I don't like it at all.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I really dont want Hand of light mastery back, it was boring as hell, i find the new mastery much more interesting

Most Masteries aren't really that interesting in all honesty but it at least made sure our abilities got stronger over time. in LEgion, only Judgement,Templare's Verdict go up with mastery. The rest of our attacks will...at the end of Legion be crap in comparison.

[Snegovik]

If Reg turns out to be right well....


You're still allowed to throw food at him

If Reg turns out to be right, most of us will have to eat our hats, including me lol....

[Demsi]

I can see why you'd think that, it's a pretty boring mastery. I'm not sure why but I really like it. If it was a simple "your abilities deal X% bonus damage" I probably wouldn't like it either, but since it's another number I like it. I disagree about the new mastery though, it isn't really interesting either, it's only a damage increase too. But since it's linked to judgement window I don't like it at all.

The reason why i find it interesting is because it creates gameplay, it's interactive

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Most Masteries aren't really that interesting in all honesty but it at least made sure our abilities got stronger over time. in LEgion, only Judgement,Templare's Verdict go up with mastery. The rest of our attacks will...at the end of Legion be crap in comparison.

"Your Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, Hammer of Wrath, Templar's Verdict, Divine Storm, and their multistrikes deal 17.0% additional damage as Holy damage".

The only non spenders are CS,HOTR and HoW, in wich 2 of them dont really deal much damage anyway. Tbh the masteries aren't that different, they are both damage increases for our Spells, they're just excecuted differently, the big difference is that the Legion version creates gameplay.

[Ashelorh]

The reason why i find it interesting is because it creates gameplay, it's interactive

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"Your Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, Hammer of Wrath, Templar's Verdict, Divine Storm, and their multistrikes deal 17.0% additional damage as Holy damage".

The only non spenders are CS,HOTR and HoW, in wich 2 of them dont really deal much damage anyway. Tbh the masteries aren't that different, they are both damage increases for our Spells, they're just excecuted differently, the big difference is that the Legion version creates gameplay.

The mastery doesn't really create gameplay though, judgement window does, but it does independently from the mastery.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The Judgement window itself creates *gameplay* Very shitty gameplay(Within how Pallies play). The Mastery just makes the stat itself more desirable. Not really more interesting. I don't really believe Mastery is intended to be super interesting or engaging. It's a stat.


Furthermore, as said several times Judgement Window is just a Holy version of Colossus Smash. Due to how Warriors generate resources it makes more sense(I believe Colossus Smash costs no resources other then a CD). It doesn't work at all on a Paladin with Holy Power.

[Biral Sunherald]

Furthermore, as said several times Judgement Window is just a Holy version of Colossus Smash. Due to how Warriors generate resources it makes more sense(I believe Colossus Smash costs no resources other then a CD). It doesn't work at all on a Paladin with Holy Power.

Yeah, Arms doesn't actively generate its resource through button-press, but through staying within melee range of the target and letting auto-attacks build the resource. In fact, so much is generated that it's rare to ever be Rage-starved. This means that whenever they have CS off cooldown, it's almost always a good idea to pop it and start spending Rage on Mortal Strike, Slam, Overpower (if specced for it), etc. Other talents, like Focused Rage, allow for different gameplay to "build up" to a super-strong MS hit after a CS use, which further interplays with one of their artifact weapon's minor traits, boosting the damage from their next MS after using CS.

See, this kind of interplay is interesting and is actually a selling point for Arms. Ret has no such ability interplay. The only one we really have is Execution Sentence timing with the Judgment window and we all know how fun that is to use...

[Reghame]

If Reg turns out to be right, most of us will have to eat our hats, including me lol....

least your head is small so the hat will not be TOO much to consume

Ret should by all means be fine as far as PVE content, and as far as PVP content goes, thats all based on how the community bitches. If they bitch a lot expect ret to be shit, if they complain slightly expect it to be ok ECT ECT.