Protection legion Discussion

[Agromat]

You guys and I definitely categorize and think about tank abilities differently. Like, SotR seems a lot more similar to Shield Block than Ignore Pain to me. And it makes sense to me to categorize IP with the other tank healing abilities since shields are a form of healing. It's hard for me to think about tanking through your lens, and vice versa I'm sure.

And I never meant to imply that other tanks don't get stronger overall as they gear up - they all do. My Fact #2 is just about that their healing / shielding abilities reduce in either frequency or magnitude as mitigation goes up, and therefore warriors aren't alone in that boat.

A couple technical clarifications:

Monk doesn't get a lower Gift of the Ox chance. See Gift of the Ox formula:

The chance is based on the size of the hit (more damage = higher proc chance), and your health % (lower health = higher proc chance).

Full formula: (0.75 * Damage / MaxHealth) * (3 - 2 * HealthPercentAfterDamage)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4316?page=3#46

This is the old formula. Compare the dates on the post you linked to the one I linked. Yours is from 4/21, and the one I linked is 4/29 - they updated the Gift of the Ox formula as part of the Brewmaster redesign where they added back Expel Harm:

Theorycrafter info: It's no longer a random chance, under the hood. When you are hit, it increments a counter by (DamageTakenBeforeAbsorbsOrStagger / MaxHealth). It now drops an orb whenever that reaches 1.0, and decrements it by 1.0. The tooltip still says ‘chance’, to keep it understandable.

Also, I don't see how Ironskin Brew and Purifying Brew are affected by AP. I know that Gift of the Ox orb healing value is, but the brews are percentage based, right?

The other warriors in this thread are all perfectly aware DH have a similar issue, and have stated on numerous occasions that their mechanics aren't as bad, as their resource income active/damage ratio is far more favorable than ours (i.e. they're far more in control of their destiny than we are). Also, their healing orbs are based on their max health, which of course, increases with Stamina. IP does not.
...
(DH orbs work on max health and, as such, are helped by upgrades)

Base DH Healing from Soul Cleave and bubbles from Shear are both AP based - Cylunaria's posted an explanation that is more complete than this as I was writing.

Now I will admit that Gift of the Ox orbs heal based on Spell Power, rather like IP works on AP.

Gift of the Ox orb healing also scales based on AP, not spell power.

Also, they're really similar to RFDT in that they don't appear until the monk has taken damage. See the formula above.

[Drkreven]

I have to ask you Agromat... and I will say this is not meant to be seen as a attack on you in any way, shape, or form. So that being said I must ask is your seemingly continual lack of ability to understand the completely debilitating issues the Protection Warrior had on the alpha and now has on the beta, (and your continual inability to see the quite terrible position that the devs have now put us in), and one which will only get worse later. Is that a attempt to convince us to play the Protection Warrior despite all the gaping issues this system will create...? Is it a attempt to make light the mathematically proven data that is supported now, and has been supported by the largest majority of the community? Or is it meant to simply compare our issues as Protection Warriors to that of others? I have to say if it is the first of those questions then you need only go back and read the near countless amount of statements myself, and others have posted in quite literally begging attempts for a explanation, or some form of a correction for the issues that we are now facing, and will far more so face later.

I must also say that if it is a attempt to get us to forgo the issues we see, and mull through the horrible issues facing us... then I can say that many of us on this forum thread myself included would love nothing more then to be able to ignore these issues, and say they are no big deal, but the fact is they are quite substantial and quite difficult to ignore given we are the only tank that has them, and I will say again whose passive resource generation has been mathematically proven will only stand to get worse as we gear up. I even now hold onto a small amount of hope that in the time that remains the devs will see reason, and do what is right for the Protection Warrior community, and the other classes in general facing truly crippling changes which neither add fun compelling gameplay, nor add there continual phrase of "class fantasy" to the spec. However the closer we come to the launch date this trend of lack of response or explanation can hardly be ignored.

I also must say that if it is a attempt to make light of the data that has been used to explain the issues facing the Protection Warrior, and its issues going forward. I would have to simply suggest that you go back to those of us whom have proven time, and time again why it is such a problem, and present mathematically proven hard evidence to support your theory that we are not in such a bad state, and that others classes are in the same quickly sinking boat as we are. I can neither confirm or deny whether this will be a easy task or a hard task, but if your going to suggest that the other tanking classes are facing such gaping issues as we are... then must ask you to please support it with more evidence then comparing abilities which have nearly no comparison to the scope of difficulty ours will present as we go forward.

I will reiterate and say once again as I did at the beginning of this post... that this is not meant to seem like a attack on you in any way, shape, or form, but if you are going to argue with those of us whom are trying to come at the devs with a concerted voice, and promote truly important changes to the class, and spec that many of us have played, and loved for near 11 years... then please come at us with something more then statements that can easily be defeated, and stand to serve no more purpose then to divide the community on these issues.

[Breccia]

Assuming you are still talking about DH here, the orbs do not scale with a % of your health. Soul cleave however does with artifact talent points (3% max HP at rank 3). So not too big. Other than that, still correct as they still get to spawn more orbs and use soul cleave more. Both of these scale off of AP.

Wow...I could have sworn they were health-based. I apologize.

- - - Updated - - -

My guess is that this is due to Prot Warrior's T19 bonuses, which I posted about a couple of posts ago. Stupid design.

What worries me the most about the T19 set bonus is that we won't have it in T20. Either each set bonus will have to be created to fix the problems caused by RFDT -- again, a situation nobody else is in -- or, we'll get a more standard bonus (Revenge lowers damage taken by X%) and RFDT will go right back to being an ugly issue again.

I've heard the term "solution looking for a problem" before. T19 reminds me of that for some reason.

[Deleted]

The warrior community has investigated, it has answered its own questions. The answer remains the same. The spec is built on a flawed premise that will only get worse. That's the whole goddam point of testing.

↓

Guesswork? Chimpanzees with typewriters?

Imma tap out. Good luck, Agromat

[Beardyface]

You guys and I definitely categorize and think about tank abilities differently. Like, SotR seems a lot more similar to Shield Block than Ignore Pain to me. And it makes sense to me to categorize IP with the other tank healing abilities since shields are a form of healing. It's hard for me to think about tanking through your lens, and vice versa I'm sure.

Yes, but you can't do that. You can't just put beef in the fruit category and call it all fruit. Just because we can eat all of those things doesn't make them the same. There has to be a concrete, categorical method for comparisons you make. I've outlined that method: opportunity cost. Breccia already described how you can't call the healing from damage taken "negative scaling." You can't call IP "healing" any more than you can call Shield Wall "healing". Just because they both prevent damage does not mean they work the same way and it doesn't mean you can freely compare them.

There is math here. There is precedent. You can't just change the rules and then try and build an argument around them.

I'm honestly not sure what your goal is anymore, outside of simply trying to argue for argument's sake.

If you can provide an argument for RDFT that has some decent insight into why it's not as bad as we think, I'm certainly willing to listen, but I have not seen that argument yet.

[Ashenia]

I got an idea to get us some answers about this and where it really goes. Will do that tonight and see if I can make it work. If that wont work then I got no clue what to do..

[Beardyface]

I got an idea to get us some answers about this and where it really goes. Will do that tonight and see if I can make it work. If that wont work then I got no clue what to do..

Does it involve grappling hooks? If so, count me in!

[Agromat]

Is that a attempt to convince us to play the Protection Warrior despite all the gaping issues this system will create? Is it a attempt to make light the mathematically proven data that is supported now, and has been supported by the largest majority of the community? Or is it meant to simply compare our issues as Protection Warriors to that of others?

Thank you for the polite question. It was honestly meant to try to make an appropriate comparison to other tanks to see if our situation is worse than theirs, since that's a common topic of conversation here. I'm not a big believer in asking for answers - I like to see if I can find them myself. You can decide how appropriate you think my comparison was.

I'm honestly not sure what your goal is anymore, outside of simply trying to argue for argument's sake.

I'm arguing because I think I'm right. I think my analysis of our class and our comparison to other tanks is more correct than yours and my goal is to share that analysis with people on this thread who are still deciding what they think.

It's pretty clear I'm never going to convince you, or Breccia, or the people that largely agree with you, and that's okay. I feel like I've given it a go, and you guys believe what you believe.

I'm going to keep reading the thread, and I'll pop back in when I find some information I think the thread might find interesting or useful, like the IP mechanics post. Or if someone misrepresents a mechanic. Or when new people ask questions and I think I can give them some good information, or just let them know that the verdict on how we work and scale isn't unanimous. And you can refute me, and that's fine.

But I'm not going to engage much with you guys anymore, I think.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

I got an idea to get us some answers about this and where it really goes. Will do that tonight and see if I can make it work. If that wont work then I got no clue what to do..

I've had one myself, I just haven't had the abiliy to test it (RIP no beta). Thinking was that we'd rely less on passive RFDT and more on active rage from our abilities as we gear up (via crit procs and haste). Only real way I could of testing it was making a poll and asking people their ilevels and what their stats were, but been too busy to make it.

[Cylunaria]

I've had one myself, I just haven't had the abiliy to test it (RIP no beta). Thinking was that we'd rely less on passive RFDT and more on active rage from our abilities as we gear up (via crit procs and haste). Only real way I could of testing it was making a poll and asking people their ilevels and what their stats were, but been too busy to make it.

Warriors on the other hand start at a lower 50/50 amount. This means that when they gear up and their only rage generators are on longer base CDs comparatively (SS = 9s, RV = 9s vs Shear = no CD, Felblade = 12 sec, reduced by haste, reset by shear like SS from dev) it won't increase as much. While their RFDT decreases by a higher value than the increase in active rage gain (it's really close, but you lose just a tiiiiny bit, ~10% or slighly less total). This is assuming about a 15-20 ilvl increase.

Already answered. I assume you are talking about if the rage gain from haste/crit for our active abilities outways the loss from RFDT during gearing up. If not please expand upon. :P

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Already answered. I assume you are talking about if the rage gain from haste/crit for our active abilities outways the loss from RFDT during gearing up. If not please expand upon. :P

Yes. I don't want to compare us to other tanks, since I"m speaking strictly Warrior here (and tbh, we're too different from most other tanks to compare 1-to-1 regardless). The difference in stats between something like 810 (which is entry heroics?) and 880 (Which is where I think mythics should be, been a while) should be large enough that, coupled with the diminished Rage that we get from taking damage, I think Crit/Haste give us enough Rage to do what we need to do. We certainly won't be swimming in it like we are now, everybody is slowed down comparatively to live, but with SB costing 10 Rage and IP costing 40, I think the emphasis on RFDT will lessen over time.

Honestly, I don't feel we're in as bad as spot as a lot of people think. I've said it before, but I think the closer we get to the end of a tier, the more we'll rely on resets from parries and Devastate (as well as procs) to generate most of our Rage. How that feels is an entirely different question, but I haven't seen much math go into this and like I said, I'm not on beta so I can't just log in and throw a bunch of gear on to make a spreadsheet.

If there is math, linking it and letting people know about this would make these problems incredibly easier to explain and just transparent to see for everyone.

[Cylunaria]

Yes. I don't want to compare us to other tanks, since I"m speaking strictly Warrior here (and tbh, we're too different from most other tanks to compare 1-to-1 regardless). The difference in stats between something like 810 (which is entry heroics?) and 880 (Which is where I think mythics should be, been a while) should be large enough that, coupled with the diminished Rage that we get from taking damage, I think Crit/Haste give us enough Rage to do what we need to do. We certainly won't be swimming in it like we are now, everybody is slowed down comparatively to live, but with SB costing 10 Rage and IP costing 40, I think the emphasis on RFDT will lessen over time.

While i'm mentioning demon hunter stats there I am purely talking about warrior scaling.

What tank is going to go from heroic dungeon content straight into mythic raids? Heroic dungeons are 825 base, mythic dungeons are 840 base, heroic raids are 865 base. If you are in a progression guild you will enter heroic raid content with full mythic dungeon gear (at least mostly), and potentially higher with mythic+ by the time the raids open up. This means you are going from an 840 to 865 ilvl increase in gear (25 ilvl). Your rage gains will shift; but, will be a net negative. You will lose more from RFDT than you gain from haste/crit on gear, it's about a 5-10% loss.

[Sting]

I played around a bit on a friend's beta account, I really hate that rage from damage taken is back. It doesn't feel smooth at all. Big step back from where we were end of MoP / entirety of WoD. The whole thing just feels clunky.

[Ashenia]

Does it involve grappling hooks? If so, count me in!

I did try it and results is... completely different then I expected. Time to give up with RFDT or FR.

[Murlocbait]

I did try it and results is... completely different then I expected. Time to give up with RFDT or FR.

Thank you for remaining as cryptic as possible. I was worried that at some point I would understand what you were talking about :P

Seriously though, do you mean it's time to give up on arguing about RFDT because it might work out ok? Or that it's a lost cause and they should just burn the whole thing down and salt the earth because we're fucked? (or something in between that is less melodramatic?)

[Ashenia]

Thank you for remaining as cryptic as possible. I was worried that at some point I would understand what you were talking about :P

Seriously though, do you mean it's time to give up on arguing about RFDT because it might work out ok? Or that it's a lost cause and they should just burn the whole thing down and salt the earth because we're fucked? (or something in between that is less melodramatic?)

That RFDT subject works on them same way as red cape on a bull. I currently doubt we will get any answer or changes to this. Just gave up trying, that's all.

[Deleted]

*remember to bring concerns and suggestions to the official beta forum \ class feedback*
And remember to keep posting there if you want to get listened to!
I'm currently working hard to get some changes to arms warrior, and so far we have gotten a few, like die by the sword is baseline, and we got our tactician changed to be about %rage spend proc chance, which leads us away from slamspam
Currently working on getting second wind change- OP in pve but useless in pvp!

[Ashenia]

*remember to bring concerns and suggestions to the official beta forum \ class feedback*
And remember to keep posting there if you want to get listened to!
I'm currently working hard to get some changes to arms warrior, and so far we have gotten a few, like die by the sword is baseline, and we got our tactician changed to be about %rage spend proc chance, which leads us away from slamspam
Currently working on getting second wind change- OP in pve but useless in pvp!

We have been posting same quotes since Alpha, I know when I'm beaten and need to stop.

[Cylunaria]

Though we have already discussed how Last Stand is a poor CD especially in Legion, I would like to point out something silly I had just done on beta that I assume is almost always the optimal way of using it.

I have made a /cancelaura macro for LS that removes it as soon as I cast it. It is effectively a 30% HP heal now (to be fair, increased with artifact), with a long ass CD. Removing the buff right after cast means I don't take reduced rage from hits, but I don't get the max health increase. Unless you are using it to buffer getting fucked in advance (good to do right now on WoD with 4-set, but not in Legion without something making LS powerful) it's useless to sit with the extra HP cap. It's really depressing that one of our longest cooldowns best ways of being used is to immediately remove it.

[Zasriel]

Though we have already discussed how Last Stand is a poor CD especially in Legion, I would like to point out something silly I had just done on beta that I assume is almost always the optimal way of using it.

I have made a /cancelaura macro for LS that removes it as soon as I cast it. It is effectively a 30% HP heal now (to be fair, increased with artifact), with a long ass CD. Removing the buff right after cast means I don't take reduced rage from hits, but I don't get the max health increase. Unless you are using it to buffer getting fucked in advance (good to do right now on WoD with 4-set, but not in Legion without something making LS powerful) it's useless to sit with the extra HP cap. It's really depressing that one of our longest cooldowns best ways of being used is to immediately remove it.

If you run Impending Victory then you should probably do that first, before your cancel aura macro.