Legion - Assassination Discussion

[elfporn]

Exsanginuate really looks and feels like something that should have been a PvP talent. That's where it shines

completely agree.

[ribthanwa]

I mean, if you do some rough math, exsanguinate + vendetta is about 4x normal dps for the duration of those bleeds, not even including energy gains nor kingsbane, so the burst is definitely real. however, 6 second burst is really only a good thing in pvp, like you said

Correction: exs + vendetta + the 100% rupture damage artifact ability does this, not just the first two

[Geckoo]

I would rather not have any pvp talent that can also work as a pve talent. Even if the best and biggest benefit from that talent is in pvp, it's also a valid choice for a pve talent. We shouldn't be deprived of that kind of choice just because we don't play that aspect of the game or while we are not playing it.

That's actually why i hate how they've implemented the pvp talent system. Many specs have pvp talents that are actually the kind of talent that could fit as a choice for any kind of content, including talents that add or change to how a spec works.

[Deleted]

Exanguinate => Current shiv place

No. Deadly brew >>> All. Deadly brew this problem, baseline ??

My suggestion :
- Thuggee(replaced tooltip by silent effect usable out camouflage and +50% cd) replaced by Flying daggers(PvP talent),
- Venom rush tooltip replaced by Overkill,
- Nightstalker(removed) replaced by Agonizing poison,
- Agonizing poison replaced by Dispatch,
- Death from above(removed) replaced by System Shock(PvP talent),
- System Shock replaced by Vile poisons(Increases the damage dealt by your poisons over time by XX% and your poisons are undispelable),
- Deadly brew(PvP talent -> Baseline) replaced by Paralytic toxin(Lethal poisons have XX% to applying Paralytic toxin, root target for Xsec)
- Up damages to Creeping venom,
- Kingsbane -> Combo builder.

Excuse me for the low level in english ^^

[Wootmonkey]

I mean, if you do some rough math, exsanguinate + vendetta is about 4x normal dps for the duration of those bleeds, not even including energy gains nor kingsbane, so the burst is definitely real. however, 6 second burst is really only a good thing in pvp, like you said

Correction: exs + vendetta + the 100% rupture damage artifact ability does this, not just the first two

Reliable burst is also good for killing priority adds in a PvE setting.

[omeomorfismo]

I mean, if you do some rough math, exsanguinate + vendetta is about 4x normal dps for the duration of those bleeds, not even including energy gains nor kingsbane, so the burst is definitely real. however, 6 second burst is really only a good thing in pvp, like you said

Correction: exs + vendetta + the 100% rupture damage artifact ability does this, not just the first two

short windows of burst are really valuable even in pve with all the raid cd or proc and priority adds

[elfporn]

short windows of burst are really valuable even in pve with all the raid cd or proc and priority adds

EXS is niche because its bad outside and after the burst window. In pve its meant for those adds that have to die within 10sec...but on a cleave target you'd have to apply bleeds first, increasing rampup, and maybe losing half your burst from exs. For burst aoe its admittedly useful, with an acceptable tradeoff in reduced energy gen afterward.

In pvp it's the shiznit.

my opinion is that it should be a pvp talent and to put something worht a damn in its current spot. For pve its crap. I could get a better talent by sticking my thumb up my ass and letting it marinate for ten minutes.

[omeomorfismo]

EXS is niche because its bad outside and after the burst window. In pve its meant for those adds that have to die within 10sec...but on a cleave target you'd have to apply bleeds first, increasing rampup, and maybe losing half your burst from exs. For burst aoe its admittedly useful, with an acceptable tradeoff in reduced energy gen afterward.

In pvp it's the shiznit.

my opinion is that it should be a pvp talent and to put something worht a damn in its current spot. For pve its crap. I could get a better talent by sticking my thumb up my ass and letting it marinate for ten minutes.

a 45s cd that is Eps burst and a little dps burst isnt absolutely "crap", it will be crap if mathematically the totat dps gain is strictly inferior than the other 2 in ALL situation, if there is even a single niche where it is good, then it's a worth talent

EDIT: i read the other 2 talents, imo it will be mandatory in aoe, heavy swaps target or target with a lot of downtime (like old sindragosa). is the only that dont need stacking and can be used on demand

[elfporn]

a 45s cd that is Eps burst and a little dps burst isnt absolutely "crap", it will be crap if mathematically the totat dps gain is strictly inferior than the other 2 in ALL situation, if there is even a single niche where it is good, then it's a worth talent

EDIT: i read the other 2 talents, imo it will be mandatory in aoe, heavy swaps target or target with a lot of downtime (like old sindragosa). is the only that dont need stacking and can be used on demand

it's a shit talent. But more importantly, it's a shit talent as compared to the other two talents in the row, **from a mythic raiding perspective**.

Exsanguinate:
Every 45 seconds your bleeds can tick 400% faster - garrote, rupture (and set bonus bleed?)
-Garrote is on a set cooldown (barring thuggee procs)
-if target doesn't die, rupture needs to be re-applied with the resources generated by exs.
-net gain of 1 near-full duration rupture.
-DPE is the same, DPS increase.


VS. Alacrity:

(Despite people hating the mechanic behind the talent, it's strong)
Alacrity is much stronger on any fight longer than 3 minutes(we don't have simcraft for 100% certainty) It's not inimical to target swaps, and is passively maintained (doesn't have requirements, cost to use, and setup needed)

Alacrity is a "free" buff in that it is maintained through the natural progress of your rotation and affects nearly all aspects of our damage.
It's only downside is a long rampup time.

VS. Agonizing poison:

Agonizing poison is a ST dream, it's inimical to target swaps - huge damage loss if any sort of hard-swap is needed.
You lose Deadly poison, and in return gain % dmg increase. Speculation is that this will be the goto for pure ST damage - definitely stronger than exsanguinate.

From a raiding point of view it's a garbage talent. There is no fight where exsanguination would not be a complete waste to have. It's setup and burst window is too long even for deathcallers on MArchi.

Both of the other two talents are all around better, and better at zero cost.

For pvp, it's perfect - targets die a lot, and you can get excellent use of exs every time.


What they should have done is take the same effect (DoTs tick 400% faster) with a 10yd aoe-effect range and applied it to our POISONS instead of BLEEDS - that would be a zero-cost talent in line with the others, it would be scalable with mastery, increase aoe damage, and have that single target and pvp burst potential as well. Not to mention it would enhance "class fantasy"

[Deleted]

(we don't have simcraft for 100% certainty)

I can't give you 100% certainty, but it's something. Please keep in mind that this APL is a very early version focused on simple things like minimizing resource waste and trying to keep a high uptime of buffs/debuffs. It is not optimized for multitarget or every single talent combination. Apart from that it is still useful for gathering some informations like AEP weights, APM and the approximate value of artifact traits.


AEP values for Exsanguinate, not much different for the other talents.


Exsanguinate 201167 dps: https://8238c223fb6ad3002f0b2ad8fc91...HZwUVd1SFJjV0k

Agi > AP > Crit > Vers > Wdps > Haste > Mastery ~= WOHdps


Alacrity 193479 dps: https://b7a24fdac56cc3f2cb60281c762a...TJjal80cWlPOWc

Agonizing Poison 187177 dps: https://2cef445008c04b2877a3dcb9f062...2JwZFhoWEY2ZEU

Agi > AP > Crit > Vers ~= Wdps > Mastery ~= Haste > WOHdps

EP, DS are most definitely a must, DFA might be viable though I didn't have the time to test it yet.

Mastery and Haste are pretty much in an awful state. In some gear settings they can't even reach half the value of Crit and Versatility. This is due to the majority of our damage coming from bleeds and Mastery not affecting them. Haste doesn't enhance said bleeds and while we feel like starving for energy the amount of Haste it takes to gain a considerable amount of energy is just too high. Auto-attacks are weak and so are our poisons. You rather want to squeeze in your Envenom in the last milliseconds of Elaborate Planning than trying to maximize Envenom uptime.(apart from Kingsbane)

Master Assassin seems to be the best relic trait.(it's not chosen in the samples I listed)

Having two decent 45sec cooldowns and 1min cooldown doesn't look too bad comparing it to live Sublety. EP adds some needed depth to the spec.
AoE and the big ramp up time for multiple targets is our weakness right now. Especially with Agonizing Poison having to wait several seconds auto-attacking a mob to get the poison applied feels atrocious.

Feel free to criticize or leave any suggestion you might have. Though this might not be the right thread - we just don't have a sticky "Legion Theorycrafting Thread - Assassination" for whatever reason.

[elfporn]

Thanks for the quick and dirty.

So it looks like, due to the scaling of rupture, it pulls very slightly ahead of alacrity. I personally still wouldn't use it.

Also, i would be astounded if those stat weights end up being correct at release, a 50% difference in power between crit and the other two secondaries? And versatility almost as strong as crit? That's ridiculous. mastery as the least valuable stat runs against all conventions for assassination.

[SilentLihn]

Feel free to criticize or leave any suggestion you might have. Though this might not be the right thread - we just don't have a sticky "Legion Theorycrafting Thread - Assassination" for whatever reason.

Thanks for the early information.
I just hope they will make some changes to the stats weight btw

[omeomorfismo]

lol, so exanguinate is very good, but poisons do little damage? D:
can i ask you if the thicks under exaguinate are every 0.4 or 0.5 sec? that in italian the pure translation mean every 0.4 D:
hovewer mastery so low is very weird D:

[Deleted]

stat weights look a bit strange, atleast for Agonizing Poison.
I just logged on my beta rogue which i geared Crit>Mastery (dont have any other secondaries).

Mastery seems to be a straight 100 points per %, 7943 rating gives me 79.43% bonus mastery for a total of 107 % more poison damage.
Versatility gets you 1% per ~400 rating, picking up 865 rating from a trinket ot me 2.16% versatility.

The difference in Agonizing Poison bonus between the mastery from my gear and no mastery gear at all is 15% at 5 stacks, converting all my mastery to versatility would get me a 19.83% bonus to all damage.
In other words, my Rupture, Garrote, Mutilate and white hits would get 4.83% more damage from versatility vs. Envenom, Poison Bomb, From the Shadows and Kingsbane losing 74.6% bonus damage.
Bleeds are a big part of our damage but i don't think it's that big.

[Deleted]

You only gain 50% of your Mastery as damage bonus for Agonizing Poison. I cross checked the artifact trait "Master Alchemist" and the damage bonus you gain via Mastery. It is implemented correctly in SimC.

[Deleted]

How is Assassination without SnD? I just imagine it to be really slow.

[Rikhart]

How is Assassination without SnD? I just imagine it to be really slow.

It´s slow even with SnD, doesnt feel much different to me.

[Deleted]

You only gain 50% of your Mastery as damage bonus for Agonizing Poison. I cross checked the artifact trait "Master Alchemist" and the damage bonus you gain via Mastery. It is implemented correctly in SimC.

my numbers were simply based on my current beta character.
naked, i get 5 % per stack, with ~8k mastery its 8% per stack

Alacrity simming higher than Agonizing is also really strange. Unless you are constantly switching targets, an ability with a significantly longer ramp up that ends up giving 25% haste should never be stronger than an increase of 25+ % to all damage, even with the added damage from Deadly Poison.

[ribthanwa]

How is Assassination without SnD? I just imagine it to be really slow.

Assassination SnD literally only affects white attacks spped and is currently a passive anyways. will not be missed, and it being missing changes nothing about how the spec feels

[Shoeboots]

I know this is just cosmetic, but is the back-mounted daggers intentional? I'm hoping it's just a beta bug. Looks goofy.