[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Deleted]

It's a shame Demo hasn't got an army of the dead type spell to use at the start to get our DPS off the ground, something on a 3 min cooldown that gives you 2 felstalkers and 5 imps.

Fun spec but terrible ramp up time and pets don't last long enough imo, by the time you have them out and empower them they're half way through their duration, i'd like them to last a bit longer personally

The temporary Doomguard should be stronger and on a shorter cooldown. For all their talk of making it our main cooldown as a replacement for Dark Soul, it is not much better than the existing Doomguard cooldown, for example, the uptime for the Doomguard is not much greater, the shorter cooldown is countered by the shorter uptime and I don't think it's going to be anywhere near Dark Soul, unless pets scale really really well

I think that Demonic Empowerment should be instant. You absolutely, absolutely have to buff every demon, it's a big loss if you don't.

It's one of the things that makes demo mobility horrible. High movement make sit hard to get the secondary pets out, and without empowering them the permanent ones hit like floppy noodles

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Aside the fact that numbers are actually not well tuned, i think the greatest problems of the new demonology spec is the fact that it can be played only in 1 way, all the others are not only a dps loss, they all are absolutely wrong from any prespective, even the very casual solo player will have great problems to achieve anything if he takes the wrong talents or try to perform a different approach...

It is really all about the same talents for, and the same 2 rotations for every situation ( ST/ AoE/ No cleave rotation aviable ).

It becomes boring, gameplay wise, very quickly, and doesn't seem its mechanics can be easily tuned by this PoV.

I want to point another thing that bothers me from the beginning of this "new" version of demonology, the fact that the "summoner" role of the spec is essentially based on imps, lot of them, and the same demons we were summoning from years... if you look at a Demonology Live and one in beta, the only addition to the summoner list are the dreadstalkers and the beholder ( not a good choice to represent the "pinnacle" of demonic summoning, imho); you still have a FG, a lot of imps, same as live, visually. This is particularly hurting, given the great choice of new demons this specific exp offers, and marks the work of devs in regard of the demo spec (still, imho) as extremely lazy and boring, from any PoV...the spec actually has a straight way of playing, something other players may call "smooth gameplay", understandable and playable by anyone in few time, but has lost all its unique perks(mobility, a situational priority in casting, etc.) to gain very little, even visually and lorewise...

Not satisfied at all.

Yep, we're back to the old game of "why are warlocks stuck with the same crappy pet models even though the Burning Crusade is absolutely overflowing with great models you could use? Why can't we have the Voidlords or Shivarra"

Look how long it took to actually get that! And we're back to that again. There is obviously no issue with using world mobs as pet models, because hunters tend to get huge catalogues of new things to tame in every expac and they all tend to have their own abilities.

But all we get is the same old, with tweaked skins at best.

The irony is we actually got the cool Inquisitor, then they replaced it with that rubbish beholder thing.

If nothing else, the Fel Lord shouldn;t be limited to PVP.

We are masters of demons, we should be able to summon Fel Lords!

[Yorindesarin]

Okay, so does anyone else feel its ridiculous that doomguard has a shard cost... I mean... come on? Wheres the logic behind that... at all? Especially if you have darkglare spec'ed too.. "Oh yeah to get your full combo off takes 9 shards! GLHF!" zzz. Not to mention empowering ALL your demons is a logical impossibility. Darkglare 12 seconds, imps 12 seconds.. one of those is going to go without empowerment for a second or so with this crappy little cast fest we have going on.

Now lets mention the mastery, why and HOW is it a good idea to link it to empowerment. Like... COME ON. That makes 0 sense. Make it flat pet damage. Easier to tune. Less "punishing" gameplay for a spec that is already severly punished (mentioned this all through alpha but was told "its just alpha itll change!" or "its not hard to play!". But its not about the "skill cap". Its about the fact they slated meta demo and stated it was "too hard to play" for those whom did no reading. But release a spec that is looking to punish the crap out of anyone who plays it instead? Smart.

However, I do like the idea of the ramp up. I enjoy having a small army (yes its small. Piddly little infact if you ask me) of demons knocking about. I just feel we have a long way to go yet... I don't expect to be doing god like DPS whilst Im moving. But I do expect the spec to not revolve around a SINGLE maintained buff... Split it up a little Blizzard for the love of god. Yeah we command demons. Yeah they are our MAIN source of damage. You want us to feel like we are doing something? Making it be a cluster fuck of casts isnt the way to go... Its great DE now affects all active demons instead of 3 strongest. Its great that we can burst like a mofo, if we get to stand still for more than 2 casts...

Oh and I won't even mention the fact that literally every spell in demo is chaos schooled... Bit of a nightmare when you get chaos locked and can't do anything. RIP for anyone PvPing demo imo.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

Okay, so does anyone else feel its ridiculous that doomguard has a shard cost... I mean... come on? Wheres the logic behind that... at all?

Oh and I won't even mention the fact that literally every spell in demo is chaos schooled... Bit of a nightmare when you get chaos locked and can't do anything. RIP for anyone PvPing demo imo.

For this part: the pvp talents Casting Circle and Summon Fel Lord work pretty well for now.

Though I am disappointed to say that I like this spec a lot less than I expected to. I think it feels too much like Affliction but with cast times and resources tied to everything. I think it would work a lot better if Demonic Empowerment was instant cast--for both rotational feel and helping the mastery out.

[Yorindesarin]

For this part: the pvp talents Casting Circle and Summon Fel Lord work pretty well for now.

Though I am disappointed to say that I like this spec a lot less than I expected to. I think it feels too much like Affliction but with cast times and resources tied to everything. I think it would work a lot better if Demonic Empowerment was instant cast--for both rotational feel and helping the mastery out.

Yeah... I just hope they actually listen... and make DE either instant. OR unlink the mastery from it. I don't mind my casters having to cast. But demo is taking the piss a bit. For example, trying out destro right now on alpha. Its about 8 trillion times more interesting and most of the spells are filler...

[Deleted]

Yeah... I just hope they actually listen... and make DE either instant. OR unlink the mastery from it. I don't mind my casters having to cast. But demo is taking the piss a bit. For example, trying out destro right now on alpha. Its about 8 trillion times more interesting and most of the spells are filler...

linking the mastery to DE makes perfect sense, its a spell we will cast already to buff our pets, so having mastery linked to it makes perfect sense, ofc i wouldnt mind if DE was instant or the mastery was a passive dmg buff, imo demo still need some work, after the implosion and demonbolt(old patch) nerf it just feels a bit meh. hopefully they will get the tuning right.

[Yorindesarin]

linking the mastery to DE makes perfect sense, its a spell we will cast already to buff our pets, so having mastery linked to it makes perfect sense, ofc i wouldnt mind if DE was instant or the mastery was a passive dmg buff, imo demo still need some work, after the implosion and demonbolt(old patch) nerf it just feels a bit meh. hopefully they will get the tuning right.

See, I feel if the mastery is passive or DE is instant the substantial gains would be insane. There would be a lot less work for Blizzard to do so to speak. Demons dealing too much damage? Tweak mastery a little because its passive instead of change the %s DE does + tweak mastery... It just seems somewhat strange to me. They want you to feel like you're doing something. With one button. I'd feel like I'm honestly doing more if my demons were hitting consistent numbers until I hit my big burst moment. Cause as it stands and as it has been mentioned. Demo suffers from all the issues of a DoT spec...

[Deleted]

See, I feel if the mastery is passive or DE is instant the substantial gains would be insane. There would be a lot less work for Blizzard to do so to speak. Demons dealing too much damage? Tweak mastery a little because its passive instead of change the %s DE does + tweak mastery... It just seems somewhat strange to me. They want you to feel like you're doing something. With one button. I'd feel like I'm honestly doing more if my demons were hitting consistent numbers until I hit my big burst moment. Cause as it stands and as it has been mentioned. Demo suffers from all the issues of a DoT spec...

not to mention the ramp up time which was fine in the old days where you had to wait for 5 stacks of sunder armor anyway. but having to wait like 16ish secs to reach max dps is a bit stupid now that other classes like mages and hunters can go full ham from the start, i feel that of all of our specs demo is the 1 that needs to start at atleast 3 shards to leviate the ramp up especially after the demonbolt and stolen power nerfs.

at the begining of the alpha i was really gung ho about the spec, it had a lot of good things going for it but as things has progressed, and simply based on the toolkit alone, im slowly and steadily heading towards destro as my main spec and demo as my 2nd spec coz i feel destro just has everything you want in any given situation, it has decent aoe burst, excellent maintainable aoe, great ST burst, outstanding cleave and with a little planning you get to spam shadowburn while moving and cleave shit while doing it, i cant wait to try a fight like tyrant as destro simply bcoz of permanet havoc and shadowburn, effectively doubling your dps on the fight, atleast for the most part.

[SxLongshadow]

linking the mastery to DE makes perfect sense, its a spell we will cast already to buff our pets, so having mastery linked to it makes perfect sense, ofc i wouldnt mind if DE was instant or the mastery was a passive dmg buff, imo demo still need some work, after the implosion and demonbolt(old patch) nerf it just feels a bit meh. hopefully they will get the tuning right.

Demo and DB definitely needed nerfs, Demo can be played without any real struggle at high levels of haste. If you don't have 30%+ haste you are probably doing it wrong at this point as 30% haste and 35% are entirely doable without WF or sockets and gets you tons of casts on Imp as well as helps alleviate the issues with DE not getting out fast enough for pets and with our hard cast times.

DE and Mastery being linked together is amazing, esp since unlike some classes who have their mastery tied to 1 spell (lolret) because we get to keep DE up nearly 100% of the time because to do otherwise means our Felguard will lose it and that's huge esp since Crit is devalued to some degree by several of our minor traits.

Implosion? You want to say it didn't need a nerf? Hitting as it did per imp? It is still INCREDIBLY powerful, so much so that it is a DPS gain to take it on ST over Imp Stalkers or Impending Doom. GG right? Yeah it totally didn't need a nerf.

See, I feel if the mastery is passive or DE is instant the substantial gains would be insane. There would be a lot less work for Blizzard to do so to speak. Demons dealing too much damage? Tweak mastery a little because its passive instead of change the %s DE does + tweak mastery... It just seems somewhat strange to me. They want you to feel like you're doing something. With one button. I'd feel like I'm honestly doing more if my demons were hitting consistent numbers until I hit my big burst moment. Cause as it stands and as it has been mentioned. Demo suffers from all the issues of a DoT spec...

Okay so they already did tweak mastery and changed it so it doesn't just go raw rating to % anymore so this idea that "just make it passive dmg will fix it!" yeah totally will fix it by being easier right? Not really. If there is no reason to use DE outside of the haste and health then you won't ever really use it unless on Imps and even then probably not b/c Implosion is still a DPS gain ST over any other option. So guess what you only use DE for?

You guessed it, freakin' TC that's it. Well done you just broke the core mechanic of the spec as it stands right now and that just won't happen at this point. Instant DE I would be okay with but only if they tweaked Power Trip as a talent to do that for DE and not just changed it baseline.

Instant Cast DE will/won't fix your guys problems with the spec.

not to mention the ramp up time which was fine in the old days where you had to wait for 5 stacks of sunder armor anyway. but having to wait like 16ish secs to reach max dps is a bit stupid now that other classes like mages and hunters can go full ham from the start, i feel that of all of our specs demo is the 1 that needs to start at atleast 3 shards to leviate the ramp up especially after the demonbolt and stolen power nerfs.

at the begining of the alpha i was really gung ho about the spec, it had a lot of good things going for it but as things has progressed, and simply based on the toolkit alone, im slowly and steadily heading towards destro as my main spec and demo as my 2nd spec coz i feel destro just has everything you want in any given situation, it has decent aoe burst, excellent maintainable aoe, great ST burst, outstanding cleave and with a little planning you get to spam shadowburn while moving and cleave shit while doing it, i cant wait to try a fight like tyrant as destro simply bcoz of permanet havoc and shadowburn, effectively doubling your dps on the fight, atleast for the most part.

... 5 Sunder ramp up wasn't you hitting the boss during that... It was you sitting there staring at the boss waiting for the tank to say it was okay to hit. We also aren't waiting 16s for max DPS our opener is messed up because of Shard gen with low haste. Higher haste means you don't have that struggle as much because your goal in your opener is to get TC inside of SH with as many demons as you can up, with 0% haste you can get up to 11 demons out with Improved Stalkers, 10 out with Darkglare and 9 out with Implosion during opener and that is cutting it incredibly close on getting TC out with them all up.

You get haste a lot of these issues go away and you will make your DPS go way up.

Tyrant will still be Aff > All b/c Aff is king on that fight, Destro might actually have some strength there now but I have a strong feeling Aff with its new toolkit will still beat all other specs on Tyrant, with Demo coming in close. Why you ask? Those adds live long enough, destro's bonus is on if they don't live long enough.

[Yorindesarin]

Okay so they already did tweak mastery and changed it so it doesn't just go raw rating to % anymore so this idea that "just make it passive dmg will fix it!" yeah totally will fix it by being easier right? Not really. If there is no reason to use DE outside of the haste and health then you won't ever really use it unless on Imps and even then probably not b/c Implosion is still a DPS gain ST over any other option. So guess what you only use DE for?

You guessed it, freakin' TC that's it. Well done you just broke the core mechanic of the spec as it stands right now and that just won't happen at this point. Instant DE I would be okay with but only if they tweaked Power Trip as a talent to do that for DE and not just changed it baseline.

Instant Cast DE will/won't fix your guys problems with the spec.

You know that haste effects your Felguard + dogs... right? Haste being a stat that demons scale with... Derp? So you'd ALWAYS still DE if mastery was flat... And not particularly. It wouldn't break the mechanic. Because the mechanics are to summon and ramp demons. You'd still summon and ramp demons...

[SxLongshadow]

You know that haste effects your Felguard + dogs... right? Haste being a stat that demons scale with... Derp? So you'd ALWAYS still DE if mastery was flat... And not particularly. It wouldn't break the mechanic. Because the mechanics are to summon and ramp demons. You'd still summon and ramp demons...

Except they don't scale as well with Haste as imps do, all haste does for Stalkers/Felguard is make them attack faster on their white hits which is useful but not as useful as say going more mastery. You can't up the health bonus of DE with mastery, its just % damage while DE is up on them so if all it provides is HP and Haste sure you're going to empower them when imps are out but if you have a need for shards or other things going on you won't waste a DE if imps are already empowered, why? Cuz there really is 0 point, it won't net enough dps vs you casting/generating more shards now I could be wrong with numbers when they show up but I have a feeling it'll end up that way if they did this.

[Yorindesarin]

Except they don't scale as well with Haste as imps do, all haste does for Stalkers/Felguard is make them attack faster on their white hits which is useful but not as useful as say going more mastery. You can't up the health bonus of DE with mastery, its just % damage while DE is up on them so if all it provides is HP and Haste sure you're going to empower them when imps are out but if you have a need for shards or other things going on you won't waste a DE if imps are already empowered, why? Cuz there really is 0 point, it won't net enough dps vs you casting/generating more shards now I could be wrong with numbers when they show up but I have a feeling it'll end up that way if they did this.

Why would the mastery change if it was flat? It would be exactly the same as it is now... No reason for it to not be. And your demons are literally ALL white hits... So more haste = more white hits = more dps? I mean it would consistently stay the same. DE haste + mastery + health vs DE haste + health w/ flat mastery is effectively the same..?

I mean add on the fact DE = health. You need that for Thiks... So you'd ideally want to have DE up as much as you can.. either way if you get what I mean?

[Deleted]

Demo and DB definitely needed nerfs, Demo can be played without any real struggle at high levels of haste. If you don't have 30%+ haste you are probably doing it wrong at this point as 30% haste and 35% are entirely doable without WF or sockets and gets you tons of casts on Imp as well as helps alleviate the issues with DE not getting out fast enough for pets and with our hard cast times.

DE and Mastery being linked together is amazing, esp since unlike some classes who have their mastery tied to 1 spell (lolret) because we get to keep DE up nearly 100% of the time because to do otherwise means our Felguard will lose it and that's huge esp since Crit is devalued to some degree by several of our minor traits.

Implosion? You want to say it didn't need a nerf? Hitting as it did per imp? It is still INCREDIBLY powerful, so much so that it is a DPS gain to take it on ST over Imp Stalkers or Impending Doom. GG right? Yeah it totally didn't need a nerf.

... 5 Sunder ramp up wasn't you hitting the boss during that... It was you sitting there staring at the boss waiting for the tank to say it was okay to hit. We also aren't waiting 16s for max DPS our opener is messed up because of Shard gen with low haste. Higher haste means you don't have that struggle as much because your goal in your opener is to get TC inside of SH with as many demons as you can up, with 0% haste you can get up to 11 demons out with Improved Stalkers, 10 out with Darkglare and 9 out with Implosion during opener and that is cutting it incredibly close on getting TC out with them all up.

You get haste a lot of these issues go away and you will make your DPS go way up.

Tyrant will still be Aff > All b/c Aff is king on that fight, Destro might actually have some strength there now but I have a strong feeling Aff with its new toolkit will still beat all other specs on Tyrant, with Demo coming in close. Why you ask? Those adds live long enough, destro's bonus is on if they don't live long enough.

first off, imo the opener window is the first 10 sec from pull and even with 30% haste and BL you just barely enters that window, ofc it depends on what our definition of the opener window is, either way haste will ofc help on that but with that said the devs have said that they want opener dps to be lower so i guess its working as intended.

secondly, i completely agree that DB and implosion should be nerfed, my problem is that we are 100% reliant on implosion doing all of demo's aoe coz demonwrath does pityful dmg but it can be casted while moving and can generate shards, so its understandable but i just want something else baseline instead of demonwrath or in addition to it, something like chaoswave that has the same chance to generate shards, is instant with a cd or charges and does decent dmg so that we arent so reliant on the downtime window where we generate shards and resummon imps for more implosions. i definately feel like demonwrath needs a buff or something additinal we can use along with it, atleast something that alleviate the reliance on implosion a bit.

[Yorindesarin]

first off, imo the opener window is the first 10 sec from pull and even with 30% haste and BL you just barely enters that window, ofc it depends on what our definition of the opener window is, either way haste will ofc help on that but with that said the devs have said that they want opener dps to be lower so i guess its working as intended.

secondly, i completely agree that DB and implosion should be nerfed, my problem is that we are 100% reliant on implosion doing all of demo's aoe coz demonwrath does pityful dmg but it can be casted while moving and can generate shards, so its understandable but i just want something else baseline instead of demonwrath or in addition to it, something like chaoswave that has the same chance to generate shards, is instant with a cd or charges and does decent dmg so that we arent so reliant on the downtime window where we generate shards and resummon imps for more implosions. i definately feel like demonwrath needs a buff or something additinal we can use along with it, atleast something that alleviate the reliance on implosion a bit.

The issue with DW is the fact that if they make it too strong youd always use it over shadowbolt... Its the same issue as always really...

[Deleted]

If wel look at IMPlosion we need to look at the damage our IMPs do first:

Spellpower: 100
Mastery 50%
Haste (enough for at least 10 felbolt casts).
Crit 15% (50% with IMP-erator).
3/3 Infernal Furnace: +30% dmg.

A single IMP felbolt will deal: 15 * 1,3 * 1,5 * 1,5 = 43,9 dmg on average.
A single IMP IMPloded deals 200 * 1,15 * 1,05 (Breath of Thal'kiel) = 241,5 damage.

If we cast 1 HoG per 15s and destroying 4 imps: we deal 4 * 9 (10 casts - 1 because we IMPlode) * 43,9 + 4 * 241,5 = 1580,4 + 966 = 2546,4
If we take Improved Dreadstalkers we deal 6 *10 * 43,9 = 2634

As we can see, Implosion deals 241,5/439 = 55% of an IMP's damage that is being buffed with DE + talents.
As we get more haste/shards we will have more IMPs out makeing IMPlosion the better choice.

[SxLongshadow]

If wel look at IMPlosion we need to look at the damage our IMPs do first:

Spellpower: 100
Mastery 50%
Haste (enough for at least 10 felbolt casts).
Crit 15% (50% with IMP-erator).
3/3 Infernal Furnace: +30% dmg.

A single IMP felbolt will deal: 15 * 1,3 * 1,5 * 1,5 = 43,9 dmg on average.
A single IMP IMPloded deals 200 * 1,15 * 1,05 (Breath of Thal'kiel) = 241,5 damage.

If we cast 1 HoG per 15s and destroying 4 imps: we deal 4 * 9 (10 casts - 1 because we IMPlode) * 43,9 + 4 * 241,5 = 1580,4 + 966 = 2546,4
If we take Improved Dreadstalkers we deal 6 *10 * 43,9 = 2634

As we can see, Implosion deals 241,5/439 = 55% of an IMP's damage that is being buffed with DE + talents.
As we get more haste/shards we will have more IMPs out makeing IMPlosion the better choice.

Your math is wrong.



0% Haste: Imp+Implosion = 1268% Imp Stalkers = 936%
10% Haste: Imp+Implosion = 1346% Imp Stalkers = 1053%
15% Haste: Imp+Implosion = 1346% Imp Stalkers = 1170%
20% Haste: Imp+Implosion = 1346% Imp Stalkers = 1170%
25% Haste: Imp + Implosion = 1424% Imp Stalkers = 1287%
30% Haste: Imp + Implosion = 1424% Imp Stalkers = 1287%
35% Haste (what can be achieved pre-raid 0 WF, Socket, TF): Imp + Implosion = 1424% Imp Stalkers = 1404%
40% Haste: Imp + Implosion = 1502% Imp Stalkers = 1404%
45% Haste: Imp + Implosion = 1502% Imp Stalkers = 1404%
50% Haste: Imp + Implosion = 1502% Imp Stalkers = 1521%

This is the breakdown for Imps vs Implosion, this does not account for Dreadstalker damage as that is almost nigh impossible to do because it has too many factors to try and account for in a spreadsheet thus Imp Stalkers is only the total of 6 imps for full duration due to summoning 2 additional imps via Stalkers. The Implosion+Imp column lists the % SP that is being dealt over 1 Imp life time and cutting them off at 3s or so because you will not be able to optimally land Implosion by counting Imp casts, it is just not worth it esp since Implosion is more powerful than Imp Stalkers all the way up to 50% haste which is the last row there.

It goes from 0% to 50% haste accounts for our Relics we would have preraid for ilvl (2 SP and 1 IF) and increments of 5 per row.

So this is the math for ST any other situation Implosion > Imp Stalkers bar none unless you are playing with Darkglare and then Impending Doom has some niche roles in Cleave/Council.

As you can see from just the spreadsheet, Improved Stalkers is only slightly weaker as you get more haste (and this isn't even accounting for Mastery gains yet) so yes. Let's all try and make assumptions about the spec with napkin or not-accounting-for-all-the-factors math to determine what is 'best' xD

The Implosion row will require simc simple as that. But I can guarantee you that Implosion does not scale with Haste/mastery, it actually falls off with haste/mastery because the more imps you can get out in a sitting for ST the higher your damage will be and imploding imps that are still at 9s duration vs 3s duration is a major dps loss at that point. So. Math is wrong implosion does not scale with our stats at all (outside of Int & Crit) as we are only looking at this purely from a Single Target DPS standpoint, you won't find anyone who says Implosion isn't good on AoE so it doesn't matter what its AoE is.

[Zinnin]

Your math is wrong.
0% Haste: Imp+Implosion = 1268% Imp Stalkers = 936%
10% Haste: Imp+Implosion = 1346% Imp Stalkers = 1053%
15% Haste: Imp+Implosion = 1346% Imp Stalkers = 1170%
20% Haste: Imp+Implosion = 1346% Imp Stalkers = 1170%
25% Haste: Imp + Implosion = 1424% Imp Stalkers = 1287%
30% Haste: Imp + Implosion = 1424% Imp Stalkers = 1287%
35% Haste (what can be achieved pre-raid 0 WF, Socket, TF): Imp + Implosion = 1424% Imp Stalkers = 1404%
40% Haste: Imp + Implosion = 1502% Imp Stalkers = 1404%
45% Haste: Imp + Implosion = 1502% Imp Stalkers = 1404%
50% Haste: Imp + Implosion = 1502% Imp Stalkers = 1521%

Does this take into account the fact that Implosion is on GCD and thus you're losing 75% of a shard + shadow bolt damage each cycle.

[SxLongshadow]

Does this take into account the fact that Implosion is on GCD and thus you're losing 75% of a shard + shadow bolt damage each cycle.

No, its a really basic formula, its just looking at Imps+Implosion and Imp Stalker in almost a vacuum, Not and I actually were discussing this and tried to add more in to give it a better overall look at what is happening but we came to it that its just too many factors and variables for a spreadsheet and simply wanted to wait for Simc, more of my point in regards to the post I was responding too.

[Zinnin]

No, its a really basic formula, its just looking at Imps+Implosion and Imp Stalker in almost a vacuum, Not and I actually were discussing this and tried to add more in to give it a better overall look at what is happening but we came to it that its just too many factors and variables for a spreadsheet and simply wanted to wait for Simc, more of my point in regards to the post I was responding too.

Yup, I just get leery about claims such as "So this is the math for ST any other situation Implosion > Imp Stalkers bar none". A lot of players that just skim forums will take that as gospel and go on holy crusades about how there is only one way to play .

I think if you are taking Beholder, and you remove .75% of an Imp damage from the Implosion Side it would be close, however if you are taking Demonbolt you'd have to see what having ~41% uptime on 2 additional pets does to Demonbolt damage. If you are taking Conduit then you start running into having to butcher varying durations of Wild Imps, that would become a purely Simc problem to solve.

I fully expect that for the average player Improved Dreadstalkers will do more single target DPS with current tuning, maybe Implosion wins out if you play it perfectly, but i'm not sure. For AoE Implosion / Impending Doom are both solid options IMO.

[Woz]

I fully expect that for the average player Improved Dreadstalkers will do more single target DPS with current tuning, maybe Implosion wins out if you play it perfectly, but i'm not sure. For AoE Implosion / Impending Doom are both solid options IMO.

That's my thought as well. Even right now for Implosion you have to kill off your Imps right after you cast HoG and hope that latency is nice to you so you only kill off 1 set of Imps and not both. And optimally you want them to live ~9s to get full potential and then Implode them. If you mess it up once it sets you back quite a bit in terms of DPS.

[btorz]

so i recently got into beta and I really dislike demo. now, having to keep up demonic empowerment every 10 seconds i've found really annoying, the spec feels empty without metamorphosis. Curse of doom is a pointless dot for soloing really as it only does damage after 16 seconds and then does 50k which is nothing and things are dead by then. Demonwrath seems a pretty situational rarely used aoe ability, why do they have to keep screwing with classes and changing them so much, my ability bar is so empty, i just summon dreadstalkers/imps then empower them and shadowbolt and that's the spec. I am really not feeling interest about playing my warlock in legion