LFR: Success or Failure?

[Insignias]

That's probably true of raiding in general, though. Or for that matter, most content in the game.

Is it?

Heroic dungeons are still spammed even before valor was a thing in wow. Normal was always ran even when pvp offered better rewards.

Honestly the only other content that crashed and burned by not offering extremely powerful rewards for its difficulty was scenarios...

LFR was tested and it was found wanting... I don't even know how you fix it to be honest. If you make it hard it just turns into a three hour wipe a fest till enough raiders que into it to carry it.

LFR has failed at everything it set out to do save to become a loot pinata. At this point it feels like blizzard is giving into the sunk cost fallacy rather then trying to fix it anymore.

[Osmeric]

Is it?

Yes. It is rare content that people will keep doing without reward.

[Glorious Leader]

Are you sure they left because of the difficulty ? Because the current normal mode is the old flex mode, only renamed. As the current heroic mode was the old normal mode.

What people tend to forget was that the old normal mode wad originally the harder 25 man mode from wotlk. When they merged loot from 10/25 man into one format they lost the easy 10 man raid
Beer league scene.

[Insignias]

Yes. It is rare content that people will keep doing without reward.

You should address more of the post then two words...

What makes lfr suffer so much when it doesn't have overpowered drops compared to heroic dungeons or normal raids?

It and scenarios stand apart from the rest of the content in wow in that they need to be over rewarding or no one will do them.

[Glorious Leader]

Is it?

If it weren't the developers.could offer raid gear outside of the raid (as they've done in the past) without fear that people would eschew participation in that raid content in favor of other content.

- - - Updated - - -

You should address more of the post then two words...

What makes lfr suffer so much when it doesn't have overpowered drops compared to heroic dungeons or normal raids?

It and scenarios stand apart from the rest of the content in wow in that they need to be over rewarding or no one will do them.

Nobody ran dungeons in wod before valor, you exhausted any need for them after about an hour or two and then just moved right the fuck on. In fact with the annoying proving ground requirement it was easier to skip them. They offered little to nothing of value as did the rest of the non raid game. In fact this was so much the case that people ran out of things to do, comained about how little content their was and nothing to do and left. In fact the developers themselves acknowledged that the activities are there but theirs no reason to dk them something they aim to correct in legion.


Basically you're wrong in every way possible. Actually in truth I'm sure they could remove gear from mythic and some mythic raiders would still do it but mythic just has to have gear...

[Osmeric]

You should address more of the post then two words...

What makes lfr suffer so much when it doesn't have overpowered drops compared to heroic dungeons or normal raids?

LFR suffers like that because almost ALL content suffers like that. There needs to be something worth doing in MMO content to get people to keep doing it, and the intrinsic reward is almost never enough.

In WoD, heroic 5 mans suffered the same fate, if you hadn't noticed. I suspect N HFC is also sliding down into that "not worth doing, hardly anyone is doing it" state right now.

[Insignias]

LFR suffers like that because almost ALL content suffers like that. There needs to be something worth doing in MMO content to get people to keep doing it, and the intrinsic reward is almost never enough.

In WoD, heroic 5 mans suffered the same fate, if you hadn't noticed. I suspect N HFC is also sliding down into that "not worth doing, hardly anyone is doing it" state right now.

Except five mans didn't... even at there worst you never had more then a ten minute que as dps. I agree with pvp rewards now being so powerful normal might be on the verge of it but I feel you are deliberately underplaying just how much lfr suffers to its kin when it comes to drawing in players.

[Glorious Leader]

Except five mans didn't... even at there worst you never had more then a ten minute que as dps. I agree with pvp rewards now being so powerful normal might be on the verge of it but I feel you are deliberately underplaying just how much lfr suffers to its kin when it comes to drawing in players.

Yea I had 30 minute ques fkr both lfr and 5 mans at one point so yes 5 mans did. Beyond that you can't simple get around the fact that the devs have a knowledge exactly what's being described to you. Lack of any motivation (gear) to do non raid content and it's being reflected in legion design. In fact in wod they had to put valor in dungeons and lfr because nobody was doing it otherwise. It needs the reward tk be appealing. Denial about this basic fact is amusing but ignorant. I suppose we could conduct an experiment to see if your belief is relevant. We old remove all the gear from normal raiding and above and see how much less participation it gets...

[Stormlance]

Yea I had 30 minute ques fkr both lfr and 5 mans at one point so yes 5 mans did. Beyond that you can't simple get around the fact that the devs have a knowledge exactly what's being described to you. Lack of any motivation (gear) to do non raid content and it's being reflected in legion design. In fact in wod they had to put valor in dungeons and lfr because nobody was doing it otherwise. It needs the reward tk be appealing. Denial about this basic fact is amusing but ignorant. I suppose we could conduct an experiment to see if your belief is relevant. We old remove all the gear from normal raiding and above and see how much less participation it gets...

That doesn't make much sense though... LFR has never not had gear. What he was arguing was that lfr needs better gear then the difficulty warrants to get people to play it.

A better example would of been if normal raids dropped heroic raid gear then after a patch dropped normal gear would people run them.

You are trying to debate by creating a strawman that doesn't really work.

[Jerichofr]

In what it is designed to do, take the ability to exclude people out of players' hands, it is completely successful, and can continue to be for a long time. One of the best things to ever come out of the MMO genre.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

That doesn't make much sense though... LFR has never not had gear. What he was arguing was that lfr needs better gear then the difficulty warrants to get people to play it.

A better example would of been if normal raids dropped heroic raid gear then after a patch dropped normal gear would people run them.

You are trying to debate by creating a strawman that doesn't really work.

He doesn't make sense. He just repeats the same thing over and over again. Strawman is pretty all he can ever do. Don't worry once he stops replying to you it means your right and he is wrong and its a form of self admitting defeat. So just keep going at him and eventually you can just put it to rest.

[Glorious Leader]

That doesn't make much sense though... LFR has never not had gear. What he was arguing was that lfr needs better gear then the difficulty warrants to get people to play it.

A better example would of been if normal raids dropped heroic raid gear then after a patch dropped normal gear would people run them.

You are trying to debate by creating a strawman that doesn't really work.

What gear it warrants is arbitrary. Lfr had tier in the past. It will have tier again. The fact is all content clearly needs to have some kind of significant reward ABOVE what's necessary for that content (by definition). You already killed the boss to get his gear ergo it's above what's warranted for the difficulty. The real decision is ultimately about what you're choosing to incentivise and their fore ultimately try and lure people towards.

[Stormlance]

What gear it warrants is arbitrary. Lfr had tier in the past. It will have tier again. The fact is all content clearly needs to have some kind of significant reward ABOVE what's necessary for that content (by definition). You already killed the boss to get his gear ergo it's above what's warranted for the difficulty. The real decision is ultimately about what you're choosing to incentivise and their fore ultimately try and lure people towards.

True but lfr has reward FAR above what is needed to complete it. It does tend to stick out as a sore thumb and out of all the content in the game it feels the effects of how its rewards relate to its relevancy.

Dungeons, raids, and even quests do not life or die based on there rewards as heavily as lfr it underlines a problem.

[glowpipe]

It was a success. A lot of people got to see stuff they otherwise wouldnt. Its just that a lot of morons think they HAVE to do lfr and complain. Even if its not even for them. Move on, nothing to see here.

[Glorious Leader]

True but lfr has reward FAR above what is needed to complete it. It does tend to stick out as a sore thumb and out of all the content in the game it feels the effects of how its rewards relate to its relevancy.

Dungeons, raids, and even quests do not life or die based on there rewards as heavily as lfr it underlines a problem.

But that's just not the case and you see it in legion. The devs have acknowledged that content which is woefully unrewarding is for all intents and purposes non existent. That's why non raid content is getting a really shot in the arm in terms of reward in legion and lfr is getting tier back.

[Stormlance]

But that's just not the case and you see it in legion. The devs have acknowledged that content which is woefully unrewarding is for all intents and purposes non existent. That's why non raid content is getting a really shot in the arm in terms of reward in legion and lfr is getting tier back.

Source?

I heard them say they thought BRF was rushed but never what you just claimed. I think they are simply trying something new with the loot. I think it isn't going to work out well for them personally but the largest changes to loot is outside of lfr in legion.

I am of the opinion that blizzard is trying hard to double down on lfr because it offers the best illusion of progress in the game currently.

[Jtbrig7390]

Source?

Right in the Q&A on the home page.

Warlords made dungeon content obsolete far too quickly. This is something the team wants to fix in Legion, which can be done with the various new dungeon systems

Those dungeons became obsolete due to lack of rewards. The only way to keep content relevant is to provide rewards in it.

[Stormlance]

Right in the Q&A on the home page.


Those dungeons became obsolete due to lack of rewards. The only way to keep content relevant is to provide rewards in it.

Or the new mythic system.

I honestly don't think rewards are going to be as interesting as people think they will be. It is kind of like how a mythic raider views gear after progression. Sure it is there but most honestly don't care if it goes to a buyer.

I think to much value is being placed on gear as a source of investment if it was current mythic dungeons would be the most popular option since they can drop mythic quality raid gear. Most don't even tend to knowledge they exist however.

We will have to see we are getting a bit of topic though with dungeons in this thread now.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Source?

I heard them say they thought BRF was rushed but never what you just claimed. I think they are simply trying something new with the loot. I think it isn't going to work out well for them personally but the largest changes to loot is outside of lfr in legion.

I am of the opinion that blizzard is trying hard to double down on lfr because it offers the best illusion of progress in the game currently.

LFR is getting slightly better rewards. Which is fine to just about everyone besides a few vocal assholes that feel its really important to shit on specific people for whatever reasons. Truth be told mythic, heroic, and even normal raiding tiers will be better rewards in light of effort, time, and skill required to do them. The gap between LFR and normal was to wide in WoD, in my and many others opinion, and really gave no path for progression or sense of reward. As long as the R in LFR stands for raiding than it should be rewarded accordingly. I get it that a few people will run LFR now that don't want to because they are motivated by progression or pressured by over bearing guild leadership but it is a short lived process at the start of each tier. With how LFR staggers out at release of a new tier most heroic/mythic raiders will be beyond the need by the time it becomes a serious problem anyway. For people progressing on normal than it kind of makes sense that you can or would farm the level below your current target to help you progress on your higher end level. For people only intending to do LFR and that is it than they can shove the sock down their pants and walk around town like they got a big dick I guess. Really isn't that important. If it makes people happy then let it be. I have mythic content to keep me and my guild happy. So just let them have LFR content that makes them happy. Beyond that it starts to leak into Glorious Leader territory of being a total asshat and just wanting to shit on other peoples content just because you choose not to or don't want to run it.

[Osmeric]

LFR is getting slightly better rewards. Which is fine to just about everyone besides a few vocal assholes that feel its really important to shit on specific people for whatever reasons. [...] I get it that a few people will run LFR now that don't want to because they are motivated by progression or pressured by over bearing guild leadership but [...]

I see this as Blizzard backing off designing for that last argument, as the cost was too high.