Mass Shooting at Florida Gay Bar

[Draco-Onis]

Everyone is asking what we could do to stop this. The hard truth is, there is nothing we can do. We could round up all Muslims and those who are mentally ill, but that has lead to worst things in the past. Trump's Muslim ban would not have stopped this. Banning semi autos would not have stopped this.

We live in a free society, if a person who has never committed a crime before decides to go crazy and start shooting people, there is nothing we can do to stop.

I always go back to legally blond in this situation. Happy people do not kill people. It is a stupid quote, but true. If we work on reducing stress, being more accepting, and reducing income inequality, it would actually do a lot. When people are less stressed by economic situations, sexual situations, and other aspects of their lives. Maybe they will see things improve.

This could have been prevented simply by making a rule that people on terrorist watch list cannot buy guns or at least get flagged and detained when they do. There is no way to prevent all tragedies all the time but we should not be going out of our way to make it easy for them.

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Do you want a US citizen to be forbid the right to bear arms just based on suspicions?

We forbid them from flying....

[Vanyali]

This could have been prevented simply by making a rule that people on terrorist watch list cannot buy guns or at least get flagged and detained when they do. There is no way to prevent all tragedies all the time but we should not be going out of our way to make it easy for them.

I hate to bust the bubble here, but if someone wants a gun in America they generally can get a gun. It just becomes a bit more expensive to get one illegally.

[NYC17]

This could have been prevented simply by making a rule that people on terrorist watch list cannot buy guns or at least get flagged and detained when they do. There is no way to prevent all tragedies all the time but we should not be going out of our way to make it easy for them.

- - - Updated - - -

We forbid them from flying....

He wasn't on a watch list, so no it could not have been prevented in that manner.

[Draco-Onis]

I hate to bust the bubble here, but if someone wants a gun in America they generally can get a gun. It just becomes a bit more expensive to get one illegally.

Yes I agree we do our best to make sure it is difficult and expensive for people to do things that are illegal, if we stop making laws because criminals find ways around them we would have no laws at all.

[AtomicSpoon]

You can thank the NRA for that.

Or the FBI. This is not the first time they have let that shit go through.

[Themius]

Well, if they questioned him and didn't find anything wrong what are they supposed to do? Hell, he probably didn't know he was kill a bunch of people until a couple days ago.

Someone was saying he was unbalanced. I don't know if he was diagnosed with something or not.

He was still on the terror watch list... you shouldn't be able to buy a gun while you're on the terror watch list. Which reminds me I remember this coming up ages ago about the NRA opposing denying guns to these people, like what?! It makes no fucking sense.

[SilverHeimdall]

Yes and that is another problem on itself. "Apathy is death."
Ignoring bad things just to avoid getting "involved" is just as bad as doing bad things, in a sense. Every good people should stand agaisnt the bad ones, not just "let them be."

But Game of Thrones teaches us that being one of the good guys means getting killed.

[Notter]

Do you want a US citizen to be forbid the right to bear arms just based on suspicions?

what else?
do you wait until they committed a crime to prevent them?

[Draco-Onis]

Or the FBI. This is not the first time they have let that shit go through.

It's perfectly legal to buy a gun even if you are on the terror watch list.

[Vanyali]

Yes I agree we do our best to make sure it is difficult and expensive for people to do things that are illegal, if we stop making laws because criminals find ways around them we would have no laws at all.

If you want the "you can't buy guns if you're on the watch list" to have any remote chance of working it'd require an overhaul of our gun regulation in general.

Like in cities with strict gun control with a more open state an hour away, the gun sellers will find and fill a void.

[Adam Jensen]

This, and and DO believe there are a lot of peaceful Muslims.. I just have a hard time believing they are the majority. And if they are, they are probably way to scared of the extremists to do any good on their own.

It's not that they're scared, but that they don't get media attention. You'll never hear about the kindly Muslim man who doesn't give two shits about gays and goes about his own personal life being a good person to the best of his ability, because it's not shocking and it's not news.

They'd rather report on how those Muslims over there said "Kill all the gays" after this one over here committed some terrible crime against gays. Because that gets readers and ratings.

[Draco-Onis]

If you want the "you can't buy guns if you're on the watch list" to have any remote chance of working it'd require an overhaul of our gun regulation in general.

Like in cities with strict gun control with a more open state an hour away, the gun sellers will find and fill a void.

Exactly but any change in gun laws even basic common sense ones results in "THEY BE TAKING AWAY UR GUNS"

[Independent voter]

They used one of those bearcat armored cars to knockdown a wall of the club so that people could get to safety.



The police chief on TV pointed it out because he was probably criticized for buying it.

[Bollocks]

The problem with this is that Islam/Quran itself advocates for killing homosexual people. The Bible no where indicates white supremacy (particularly since the people of the Bible were all...well...Middle-Easterners.)

That is, the KKK has no real Biblical basis whereas ISIS has basis in Islamic teachings. At BEST, you could argue the KKK used the social order clause (the same thing that supports paying taxes - "render unto Caesar"), and Paul sending a letter to Philemon pleading for compassion for the escaped slave Onesimus (since questioning slavery in Roman times was...just not a thing). The KKK used this as justification for slavery, this is true, but that's all they had.

There was no direct command in the Bible to have slaves, to support slavery, or to lynch black people. Indeed, the Bible has explicit counters to things like this (for example "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" would seem apt when asking oneself "should I hang this black person for no good reason?")

Again, there's no comparison at all.

...and that's before realizing that the KKK has been in decline for decades and is no serious power in the modern world ANYWHERE while radical Islam is, and ISIS, in particular, is in a struggle and basically a de-facto country, as well as an outpost in Libya and another in Afghanistan, with more fighters scattered around in places like Yemen.

And that's JUST ISIS - we're not even talking Al Qaeda and Boko Haram, here.

When the KKK takes over half of Georgia and declares and runs themselves as an independent state, while also having an outpost colony in Portugal and another in Quebec. Oh, and while other radical Christian groups are fighting civil wars in Eastern Europe - Poland, perhaps? - and have terrorist cells scattered across greater Russia, Europe, the US/Canada, and Australia. Oh, and when a new book of the Bible is discovered that says white people are the supreme race, black people should be killed, slavery should be legal everywhere, etc.

When THAT happens...then we can state an equivalence with the KKK and ISIS.

Until then, white supremacy is in decline and the KKK is an empty group with no power and no backing in the Christian texts...and ISIS has a good deal of power, radical Islam is a thing, and has backing in the Muslim scriptures.

.

ALL.
THAT.
SAID:

I'm just responding to a false equivalence post. None of this even matters right now...
(I'm not even sure, honestly, why I bothered to respond to it, much less in such depth.)

I guess I'm just going to put a rebuttal here of many quotes that go against that idea:

“An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever;” (Deuteronomy 23:3)
Discrimination against other groups

Bob Jones argued that if God created different races then it was for a purpose and they should be maintaned as such.
Then here are many more quotes that justfy discrimination and advocate for purity of the race:

Before you make the argument racism just pertains to the skin colour here have the UN definition of racism:
“any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin”
http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/enable/rights/wghrefa7.htm

Ok with that out of the way lets dust our bible:

Moreover, in those days I saw men of Judah who had married women from Ashdod, Ammon and Moab. 24 Half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod or the language of one of the other peoples, and did not know how to speak the language of Judah. 25 I rebuked them and called curses down on them. I beat some of the men and pulled out their hair. I made them take an oath in God’s name and said: “You are not to give your daughters in marriage to their sons, nor are you to take their daughters in marriage for your sons or for yourselves. 26 Was it not because of marriages like these that Solomon king of Israel sinned? Among the many nations there was no king like him. He was loved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel, but even he was led into sin by foreign women. 27 Must we hear now that you too are doing all this terrible wickedness and are being unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women?” Nehemiah 13:23-30

An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever;” (Deuteronomy 23:3)

Hell most of deuteronomy describes how the Israels slaughtered the natives that lived there because they were interrupting in their promised land.

However many quotes of the bible also advocate agaisnt racism and so does Quran:

To quote from the quran:

Quran 5:32 "Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land!."

There are more sources that go against the idea that ISLAM justifies ISIS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lezIO8yg2r4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAJ86yKQT6U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJGiIOxyQtM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL7xoaaLipI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjPk37AUQDA
https://www.amazon.com/Refuting-ISIS...=1&*entries*=0
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/
And to add that the guy was mentally unstable and muslims already condmened this acts:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...21465748801168
https://twitter.com/I_C_P_B/status/742091296010014720

Infracted - Forbidden Topics

[Adam Jensen]

Holding rallies is not the same as shooting up a night club.

Holding rallies encourages the more radical ones into action.

[Vanyali]

Let's not get into bible quotes and what religion has racism baked in. That's a surefire way to close the thread down. Not that it's been on topic since the OP, but eh.

[PACOX]

The problem with this is that Islam/Quran itself advocates for killing homosexual people. The Bible no where indicates white supremacy (particularly since the people of the Bible were all...well...Middle-Easterners.)

That is, the KKK has no real Biblical basis whereas ISIS has basis in Islamic teachings. At BEST, you could argue the KKK used the social order clause (the same thing that supports paying taxes - "render unto Caesar"), and Paul sending a letter to Philemon pleading for compassion for the escaped slave Onesimus (since questioning slavery in Roman times was...just not a thing). The KKK used this as justification for slavery, this is true, but that's all they had.

There was no direct command in the Bible to have slaves, to support slavery, or to lynch black people. Indeed, the Bible has explicit counters to things like this (for example "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" would seem apt when asking oneself "should I hang this black person for no good reason?")

Again, there's no comparison at all.

...and that's before realizing that the KKK has been in decline for decades and is no serious power in the modern world ANYWHERE while radical Islam is, and ISIS, in particular, is in a struggle and basically a de-facto country, as well as an outpost in Libya and another in Afghanistan, with more fighters scattered around in places like Yemen.

And that's JUST ISIS - we're not even talking Al Qaeda and Boko Haram, here.

When the KKK takes over half of Georgia and declares and runs themselves as an independent state, while also having an outpost colony in Portugal and another in Quebec. Oh, and while other radical Christian groups are fighting civil wars in Eastern Europe - Poland, perhaps? - and have terrorist cells scattered across greater Russia, Europe, the US/Canada, and Australia. Oh, and when a new book of the Bible is discovered that says white people are the supreme race, black people should be killed, slavery should be legal everywhere, etc.

When THAT happens...then we can state an equivalence with the KKK and ISIS.

Until then, white supremacy is in decline and the KKK is an empty group with no power and no backing in the Christian texts...and ISIS has a good deal of power, radical Islam is a thing, and has backing in the Muslim scriptures.

.

ALL.
THAT.
SAID:

I'm just responding to a false equivalence post. None of this even matters right now...
(I'm not even sure, honestly, why I bothered to respond to it, much less in such depth.)

You're wrong in that the Bible wasn't twisted just as the Quran to justify slavery and racial superiority - the vary way Christianity was used to justify slavery and prejudice was used to spawn groups like the nation of islam because they couldn't see past the way Christianity was used as tool by some groups. During the 1800s, the Bible was used by slavers and abolitionist. The KKK burns crosses because they think they are on some sort of holy crusade. The real difference between the KKK at its height and ISIS now? The KKK didn't have the aid of the internet and was local so thus slightly easier to dismantle. The problem with these groups like ISIS is that they don't die hards groups of resistance backed by local governments like the KKK faced. Not say there aren't plently of differences between the KKK at its height and ISIS, but the most significant difference, the one that truly matters in term of the US dealing with bad people, is the the KKK was home grown group and ISIS is on the other side of the world.

[Renathras]

You can thank the NRA for that.

Probably because a watch list without crime, evidence, or a court case isn't due process.

You can thank the Constitution, Second, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments for that, as well as the rule of law for 1,000 years that has come to say - in Western society - that you can't take away people's rights without accusing them of a crime, and you cannot KEEP their rights taken away without them being found guilty in court of said crime.

It should also be noted he was questioned by the FBI because someone he KNEW went and became a suicide bomber. That is, he wasn't being accused of anything by the FBI. They wanted to know more about said friend and any information they could find out about the guy.

.

The NRA is the boogieman of liberals, but the NRA isn't the reason that you can't deprive people of their rights or property - the FIFTH Amendment (not the Second) is. The SECOND just adds guns specifically to that mix. The FIFTH would be the liberty to buy a gun and the property of owning a gun - that these cannot be removed without a due process of law.

Putting someone on a watch list that they aren't informed of and cannot contest is not due process of law.

[PC2]

It's perfectly legal to buy a gun even if you are on the terror watch list.

Yeah I don't see why a list would take away your 2nd amendment rights.

[Bollocks]

Let's not get into bible quotes and what religion has racism baked in. That's a surefire way to close the thread down. Not that it's been on topic since the OP, but eh.

Yeah you are right, its just that it bothers me when people pretend that ISLAM is justified by the Quran and muslims.