Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Deleted]

Yesterday I was tanking HC HoV and my active mitigation effect "buff" was shown after used DS and Marrowrend. My frames were showing buff but it wasn't working and wasn't protecting from AM minigame abilities.

[Milocow]

They seem to have fixed the unending thirst bug. always getting leech off my ds damage it seems. Also leech also heals you based off the DS heal?

[Northern Goblin]

I'm having a weird bug where my bone shield stacks never deplete when taking hits.

I refuse to believe that my avoidance is high enough to be dodge/parrying every hit, but I'm sat on perma 10 stacks.

[Deleted]

Posting this here is not the best way to give feedback and report bugs.

[Northern Goblin]

Posting this here is not the best way to give feedback and report bugs.

You assume I'm also not posting it in game. I'm just checking it's not just me, or it's already been noticed, is a tooltip error etc.

[Agromat]

Hi all. Sorry to jump in from another class forum about a week-old question, but you guys might want to look more closely into whether external absorbs reduce the amount of DS healing.

I'm a warrior and whether absorbs count as damage taken is very important to us, since we generate rage from damage taken, and our reactive healing ability (Ignore Pain) is an absorb. Ignore Pain's absorb and all external absorbs count as damage taken for the warrior's rage generation formula, so my guess is it's similar for you.

I would be surprised if damage absorbed by externally applied shields doesn't count towards Death Strike's "damage taken" amount, especially given Celestalon's language about the change ("Bone Shield is an absorb now, so counts towards Death Strike"). I think Troxism's assumption about how that works in Legion in the Google doc (page 14, right?) is probably wrong.

Anyway, might be worth testing in-game. Would love an update if I'm wrong about it - I'm trying to get my head around how different tanks scale.

[Veiled Shadow]

Hi all. Sorry to jump in from another class forum about a week-old question, but you guys might want to look more closely into whether external absorbs reduce the amount of DS healing.

I'm a warrior and whether absorbs count as damage taken is very important to us, since we generate rage from damage taken, and our reactive healing ability (Ignore Pain) is an absorb. Ignore Pain's absorb and all external absorbs count as damage taken for the warrior's rage generation formula, so my guess is it's similar for you.

I would be surprised if damage absorbed by externally applied shields doesn't count towards Death Strike's "damage taken" amount, especially given Celestalon's language about the change ("Bone Shield is an absorb now, so counts towards Death Strike"). I think Troxism's assumption about how that works in Legion in the Google doc (page 14, right?) is probably wrong.

Anyway, might be worth testing in-game. Would love an update if I'm wrong about it - I'm trying to get my head around how different tanks scale.

This was discussed last page (Death Strike healing is calculated from pre-absorb damage, not sure if pre-armor/DR like it is now) and is a fairly recent change - the document in the OP was written long before that.

[Agromat]

This was discussed last page (Death Strike healing is calculated from pre-absorb damage, not sure if pre-armor/DR like it is now) and is a fairly recent change - the document in the OP was written long before that.

Yeah, I read that - I posted because the conversation didn't seem resolved with a definitive answer. Schatterhorn said he was going to test absorbs from externally applied shields be never got back, and Xiaojin and Murderdoll didn't seem to agree how it works. If it's like warrior rage it counts damage after DR/armor reductions but before absorbs are subtracted. Some numbers from the beta might help settle the functionality definitively.

Anyway, all the best to you guys - see you in the tank queue!

[Milocow]

OK so its confirmed : DS heals you as though the boneshield absorb wasn't there
PROOF :
Looking at the 237780 DS heal
Base heal = 237780 / 1.2192 (from versatility) = 195029
total damage taken in the past 5 seconds = 195029 x 5 = 975147
the damage taken previous 5 seconds were the 178479 unmitigated autoattack to the 162673 autoattack and if you were to add up those lines with the absorbed damage in brackets in the combat log you would get 975147 nicely

Blood Mirror test : Blood mirror doesn't decrease strength of DS heals either

Using the same formula as above but now with 9.24% healing bonus versatility, using DS heal as 258216 and damagetaken from the 254261 auto to the 171092 auto, it aligns nicely with a 99.99763% accuracy
Total damage from combat logs is 1181846 but with the DS healing formula says I should have taken 1181874 damage

[Galatan]

OK so its confirmed : DS heals you as though the boneshield absorb wasn't there
PROOF :
Looking at the 237780 DS heal
Base heal = 237780 / 1.2192 (from versatility) = 195029
total damage taken in the past 5 seconds = 195029 x 5 = 975147
the damage taken previous 5 seconds were the 178479 unmitigated autoattack to the 162673 autoattack and if you were to add up those lines with the absorbed damage in brackets in the combat log you would get 975147 nicely

Blood Mirror test : Blood mirror doesn't decrease strength of DS heals either

Using the same formula as above but now with 9.24% healing bonus versatility, using DS heal as 258216 and damagetaken from the 254261 auto to the 171092 auto, it aligns nicely with a 99.99763% accuracy
Total damage from combat logs is 1181846 but with the DS healing formula says I should have taken 1181874 damage

Since your Character seems to be an undead, and i see touch of the grave quite a few times, can you comment on the ppm chance for it?

[Deleted]

It is random. I've had 2 procs in 40seconds, and I've had up to 90seconds of no procs. It is hard to evaluate.

[Galatan]

It is random. I've had 2 procs in 40seconds, and I've had up to 90seconds of no procs. It is hard to evaluate.

Okay, thank you!
thought it might be a nice racial, but doesnt look like it is..

[Philondra]

I know that tuning isn't yet finished, but is there a recommended path to take for the blood artifact? Obviously we want to shoot for one of the gold traits as soon as possible, but given that the so-called "low-hanging fruit" of artifact power stops at 12 points, I'm concerned about making the proper choice.

From a qualitative perspective, the stronger gold trait is on the right (Skeletal Shattering) but the stronger normal traits are on the left (the two traits boosting Dancing Rune Weapon, and Veinrender boosting Heart Strike).

So I'm torn between going to the bottom-right of the tree (http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...RkBEcARIQFTMBA) and the bottom left of the tree (http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...RsBEeARIQFTMBA). Each of these take a roundabout path to the first gold trait, but have the bonus of easy access to the (probably weakest) gold trait at the bottom as well as enabling me to put my 13th point into Blood Feast. My gut is telling me to go to the left for the synergy between Veinrender and Blood Feast, but I'm not sure.

What's the conventional wisdom on this?

[Spryte]

I know that tuning isn't yet finished, but is there a recommended path to take for the blood artifact? Obviously we want to shoot for one of the gold traits as soon as possible, but given that the so-called "low-hanging fruit" of artifact power stops at 12 points, I'm concerned about making the proper choice.

From a qualitative perspective, the stronger gold trait is on the right (Skeletal Shattering) but the stronger normal traits are on the left (the two traits boosting Dancing Rune Weapon, and Veinrender boosting Heart Strike).

So I'm torn between going to the bottom-right of the tree (http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...RkBEcARIQFTMBA) and the bottom left of the tree (http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...RsBEeARIQFTMBA). Each of these take a roundabout path to the first gold trait, but have the bonus of easy access to the (probably weakest) gold trait at the bottom as well as enabling me to put my 13th point into Blood Feast. My gut is telling me to go to the left for the synergy between Veinrender and Blood Feast, but I'm not sure.

What's the conventional wisdom on this?

How much damage is Blood Plague doing during Vamp Blood? I can't test it right now but surely its not that much to make this trait that good? Dunno.

[Philondra]

How much damage is Blood Plague doing during Vamp Blood? I can't test it right now but surely its not that much to make this trait that good? Dunno.

Yeah, you'd have to be tanking lots of adds for the left trait to be any decent, so I imagine it'll have a higher value in Mythic+, where trash actually matters.

Garalon posted a few weeks back:

Well umbilicus eternus is a 47.3% of AP x 5 x 5 ticks x no. Of targets with blood plague every 1.5min so.. 1182% AP shield every 1.5min? Complete shitty golden artifact trait there

.

Of course, the trait gains a bit more value if you spec into Red Thirst, which is looking to be a good default talent anyway.

But then after that Skeletal Shattering got tuned down to only an extra 8% reduction. At a completely unreasonable crit level of 25%, it turns Bone Shield into an average of 22% damage reduction. At a more reasonable 12.5% crit, the average damage reduction is 21%--a whopping 1% more than without the trait.

Both of these seem rather underwhelming.

[Milocow]

Yeah, you'd have to be tanking lots of adds for the left trait to be any decent, so I imagine it'll have a higher value in Mythic+, where trash actually matters.

Garalon posted a few weeks back:
.

Of course, the trait gains a bit more value if you spec into Red Thirst, which is looking to be a good default talent anyway.

But then after that Skeletal Shattering got tuned down to only an extra 8% reduction. At a completely unreasonable crit level of 25%, it turns Bone Shield into an average of 22% damage reduction. At a more reasonable 12.5% crit, the average damage reduction is 21%--a whopping 1% more than without the trait.

Both of these seem rather underwhelming.

unending thirst seems the best : free 50% increase to DS and free 50% leech from DS

[Deleted]

I firmly believe that going for Unending Thirst while chosing the "right" side of the tree, is still the best option for the first talents choices.

Sanguinary Affinity -> Vampiric Fangs -> Rattling Bones -> Bonebreaker -> Bloodfeast -> All Consuming Rot -> Unending Thirst.

That way we get both of our leech talents, dmg increase for D&D, DS and Marrowrend, that much needed Bone Shield additional rng charge, and a nice boost to VB.
That way we can also get Dance of Darkness, Mouth of Hell and veinrender before the artifact power costs spike to high.

[Deleted]

unending thirst seems the best : free 50% increase to DS and free 50% leech from DS

Is that how UT is currently working? I thought it was changed a while ago so DS doesn't benefit from its own blood shield, meaning you'd have to use DS a second time while blood shield is still active to get any benefit. Otherwise this is easily the best trait in the entire artifact.

[Deleted]

Unending Thirst should work on the first DS as well yes, that is my understanding of it. It is quite literally useless if that is not how it works, a Blood Shield breaks instantly

[Deleted]

At one point, someone on the official forums posted screenshots of how only the leech portion applied to the first DS, while the increased damage portion only worked if you already had blood shield active. I remember reading somewhere that this was then changed so both effects only apply when you have a blood shield from a previous DS.
That's why it'd be nice if someone could actually test this in the alpha. I understand UT would be useless if that's true, but our other golden dragon traits are borderline useless as well. On the other hand, if DS always benefitted from UT, it would be absurdly strong, probably the best trait of all artifacts. 50% bonus damage on your biggest damage source is ridiculous, even ignoring the leech entirely.