[Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[FenixAU]

My poor, sweet sigil of flame..

[Elamahpla]

it was needed, being able to pull upwards of 700k+ on large groups was kind of insane.

too bad though. this nerfs self healing.

[Delimit]

Nerfing base abilities because of a single talent, rather than making the talent fit the base abilities.

Soul Cleave damage was also hit.

[Zabbs]

Our AoE damage needed to be toned down and Crash as a single target DPS talent wasn't the most natural thing. It does have some repercussions for the usefulness of Concentrated Sigils amongst other things. It really kills Sigil of Flame as part of our DPS rotation. You may as well save it for picking up adds and just Soul Cleave more.

[Munkky]

It isn't useless on aoe. For 2 targets it will be a use on cd. It's just not worth for single target except with fiery demise.

Also conc sigils is very bad. It only adds a tiny bit of damage that is easily beaten by fel eruption.

[ShasVa]

On the latest Beta build (not the PTR, still downloading that), Vengeance DH seems weaker than in previous builds. Whilst running HoV, I actually died twice, whereas before I got close to death but recovered. Something seems off with them, maybe. o.O

[Deleted]

In general I've heard that Vengeance is pretty squishy as a tank, haven't tanked on other classes myself so can't say one way or another.
But my pockethealer rages every time I need to go Vengeance or we get DH tank in dungeon

[gcsmith]

In general I've heard that Vengeance is pretty squishy as a tank, haven't tanked on other classes myself so can't say one way or another.
But my pockethealer rages every time I need to go Vengeance or we get DH tank in dungeon

They've nerfed their damage mitigation to the point where their own natural armour is far worse than all others

[FenixAU]

Vengeance is squishier than I'd like, but it's not horrible once you get a decent level of haste and mastery. Now that I've gotten past 20% haste again, and 32% mastery, it feels okay.

Successfully tanked Mythic+6 (Raging) Neltharion's Lair today without too much of an issue, and Mythic+5 (Raging) Halls of Valor with only some minor issues due to being overwhelmed by a DK inadvertently pulling extra packs.

Don't get me wrong, I'd still love to see our armor multiplier go up to 150-160%, but this is manageable.

[Zabbs]

The whole weird part about our "squishiness" is that it is counter to the design goals of making tanks accessible. There is a clear line between a good and a bad Vengeance Tank currently.

[Deleted]

To be honest only part I dislike is the RNG nature of fragment generation. You can't really improve on it by learning your class.

[Pruka]

The whole weird part about our "squishiness" is that it is counter to the design goals of making tanks accessible. There is a clear line between a good and a bad Vengeance Tank currently.

Serious question: How do you define or how do you play a good vengeance tank?

[Zabbs]

Serious question: How do you define or how do you play a good vengeance tank?

Vengeance tanking is currently about preparing to use Soul Cleave to keep your health up when Demon Spikes is down. You also need to recognize when you should use one of your 1 minute cooldowns or talents proactively when you are taking too much damage to just have Soul Cleave supporting you. It isn't very different from other tanks to be honest. There is just a lower margin for error due to our lower base mitigation. This is made up for by our 1 minute cooldowns. It ends up being more complicated than other tanks because we need to rotate our cooldowns more often. This rotation and your base ability rotation matter quite a bit. Others in this forum have described getting into a rhythm and I would agree with that. Once you get into that rhythm, you are golden. I don't feel this is quite the case with other tanks I have played on Beta. I could honestly miss a few GCDs and be just fine on other classes. That isn't always the case for a Vengeance Demon Hunter. If I just stand still as a DH for 3 seconds, I could get trucked.

[Munkky]

Vengeance tanking is currently about preparing to use Soul Cleave to keep your health up when Demon Spikes is down. You also need to recognize when you should use one of your 1 minute cooldowns or talents proactively when you are taking too much damage to just have Soul Cleave supporting you. It isn't very different from other tanks to be honest. There is just a lower margin for error due to our lower base mitigation. This is made up for by our 1 minute cooldowns. It ends up being more complicated than other tanks because we need to rotate our cooldowns more often. This rotation and your base ability rotation matter quite a bit. Others in this forum have described getting into a rhythm and I would agree with that. Once you get into that rhythm, you are golden. I don't feel this is quite the case with other tanks I have played on Beta. I could honestly miss a few GCDs and be just fine on other classes. That isn't always the case for a Vengeance Demon Hunter. If I just stand still as a DH for 3 seconds, I could get trucked.

What Zabbs said. #GitGudm8

[ShasVa]

Would Purified Shard of the Third Moon be a good trinket for Vengeance, at least while leveling?

Also would the HFC LFR set bonuses for Leather tanks (more armour and a small HoT) be good too, assuming there is time to obtain them between the pre-patch and Legion's online date?

[Zabbs]

Would Purified Shard of the Third Moon be a good trinket for Vengeance, at least while leveling?

Also would the HFC LFR set bonuses for Leather tanks (more armour and a small HoT) be good too, assuming there is time to obtain them between the pre-patch and Legion's online date?

Purified Shard's Cooldown should work just fine with early Vengeance's lack of tools due to the lack of early talents. LFR loot would be replaced rather quickly as that set bonus isn't strong enough to compete with ilvl increases.

[Deleted]

I guess it rly depends on how long we have time due to the release of legion. I personally will try to get the best gear obtainable for my demonhunter, that means mythic rnd leather dropps from hfc, 3 crafting pieces and perhaps hfc mythic gear if we can play dh at least 2-4 weeks before release. Our guild plans to carry our 3 DHs through hfc mythic and funnel them a bit of gear to make the start smoother.

[Yorgl]

Would Purified Shard of the Third Moon be a good trinket for Vengeance, at least while leveling?

I will probably use it at level 110 (unless the scaling make it weak at this level, but seeing how incredibly good it is at 100....), but I'm not sure it's a right choice for leveling : it provides a lot of absorb that is unecessary again regular mobs. The versatility is still good but I guess that a truly offensive trinket would be more appropriate.

Thoughts from actual beta players ?

[Zabbs]

I will probably use it at level 110 (unless the scaling make it weak at this level, but seeing how incredibly good it is at 100....), but I'm not sure it's a right choice for leveling : it provides a lot of absorb that is unecessary again regular mobs. The versatility is still good but I guess that a truly offensive trinket would be more appropriate.

Thoughts from actual beta players ?

Early Vengeance is very RNG susceptible in dungeons since we don't have our full toolkit until maxish level. To clarify my recommendation for Shard is based on using it reactively to fill in the cracks of the rotation during DS downtime and low health events. Obviously use DPS trinkets for Questing. You are still very strong in questing like all other tanks. Of course grab all the gear you can, but the 685 ilvl starter gear on Beta was more than enough to deal with the Legion start. The ilvl jump hasn't felt as harsh compared to past expansions. Since we have no tier bonuses from HFC and HFC Trinkets have been nerfed (by at least 20%), I'm not not as concerned as I would normally be. However, you'll want to play DH right away anyway so you may as well gear the hell out of it. Hype may as well be content at that point.

[Yorgl]

I didn't realize that for lveling dungeons, thanks for the clarification. (That's pretty cool I guess, cause that means that dg are not totally faceroll)