[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[Taeldorian]

1. Speedboost is a problem, just go take a look at this thead: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rough-Dungeons a priest with FEATHERS (which is better than speed of light on live) is complaining about movement speed. Just because you think you are doing fine doing regular mythic dungeons or +2 or whatever you have been doing does not make it true for high end mythic raiding or mythic +15 dungeons.

2. Yes it is intended it has been like this since day 1 of alpha, it is not going to change. Freedom is the new best holy paladin utility

1. Relax, I did say we could use more. I've already provided feedback on both the beta thread and the dev question thread asking about or mobility. I'm just saying I've been fine so far in dungeons. I haven't been able to test mythic raids yet but a majority of my guild is on beta so we will be testing it when it becomes available. Again, I'm not a high end mythic raider, my guild takes it slow and usually completes mythic within the first month or so of it being fully released.

I'm speaking about mythic dungeons ONLY right now. We're okay in there, can easily keep up with the whole group because lightbringer allows you to stay in ranged most of the time if you take that talent. If not, the only tank that is way over the top fast is demon hunter. Overall in 5 mans we can keep up, positioning plays a large part in that though.

2. That sucks. I think I remember saying something about this, I think I asked if its intended. That's not great.

1(a):Again, we will be powerful there's no doubt. Sparty smallwood does high end raiding and he's a top end mythic raider. He's spoken about holy Paladins and said we'll be great. Testing happens this Friday and Monday so I guess we'll really see how everything plays out then. I have finals on Friday so I'll be watching a Vod of Sparty testing and see how it works out. Overall it seems well be powerful aside from the mobility, but before i judge anything I'll be waiting to see how the top end mythic holy Paladins do during raid testing this Friday/Monday.

TLDR and @Leefa: Having to chase down the tank becomes a non issue with lightbringer. If the tank is gaining the full benefit from your mastery why stand near him when you can be standing near someone else and give them the full benefit? This is why the issue can be avoided, has nothing to do with LFR or mythic. I'm not disagreeing with either of you, we could use more mobility, I'm just saying chasing the tank isn't an issue in mythics (5 mans).


Again, since I'm not a top end mythic raider I'll be waiting for the two top end mythic holy Paladins I watch to participate in the testing and see what they say.

[Deleted]

1(a):Again, we will be powerful there's no doubt. Sparty smallwood does high end raiding and he's a top end mythic raider. He's spoken about holy Paladins and said we'll be great. Testing happens this Friday and Monday so I guess we'll really see how everything plays out then. I have finals on Friday so I'll be watching a Vod of Sparty testing and see how it works out. Overall it seems well be powerful aside from the mobility, but before i judge anything I'll be waiting to see how the top end mythic holy Paladins do during raid testing this Friday/Monday.

He is neither a high end raider nor a credible source, him, towellie and a couple of other streamers are not trustworthy at all. These are streamers that will suck up to Blizzard to get a few extra beta keys to give away so they can earn even more money.

Holy paladins are not in a good spot, you can do all the mental gymnastics you want, but the fact that you have to say "if we ignore raid cd, tank cd, mobility and utility then paladins are great" just goes to show how ridiculous that idea is.

[Unir]

I actually think mobility is going to be a problem for raid/dungeon/encounter mechanics, in addition to the problem Pacer is describing. Cloak enchant (+10%) is no longer a thing in Legion. Unless you spec for that crappy 3-second speed boost you will be running at normal speed to a) get out of fire, b) drop off fire, c) take that debuff where it needs to go, d) break those chains, e) soak something, etc.

Also, that crappy 3-second speed boost is on a talent line where it is the least attractive of the three. Spec Unbreakable Spirit or Rule of Law you say? Take off your cloak with its enchant and trot around a bit. It is insanely slow.

Now imagine you're progressing on Mythic Xhul'horac, you're using the ping-pong strat, and you get hit two times in a row with the fel fire debuff while you have the warlock portal debuff and cannot use it. How are you getting from where you are, if at the furthest ping pong point, to the fel fire drop off spot? You're certainly not flat-footing it at 0% speed increase.

There are other examples in HFC and the WoD raids, but that means one of two things - either a) that crappy 3-second speed boost is mandatory on that row, a design idea they wanted to avoid, or b) the challenge of dealing with movement-required mechanics is going to be harder for holy paladins than any other healer - and for no apparent reason.

This entire expansion we have spent having either a 15% passive boost ranging up to 30%, or a 10% passive boost plus a nice on-use speed boost to deal with mechanics. People think I'm kidding, but spec speed of light, take your cloak off and trot around for a while. It is stupidly slow. Now replay some of the HFC mythic mechanics in your head or try it on your next farm clear if you do them. My gut says this is going to be a much bigger problem than people are anticipating.

It's also just dumb. There is simply no need for this poor design idea, and it is way out of line with the mobility other healers will be using to deal with these mechanics issues. Having instant spells is no excuse for it, since that rationale is obviously not applied to the other healer class designs.

Edit: Pardon my ranting. I'm just annoyed by this. Don't even get me started on how useless Sac is now or how dumb the "lifetap your health into other people" abilities are - again, for no logical reason.

[Taeldorian]

He is neither a high end raider nor a credible source, him, towellie and a couple of other streamers are not trustworthy at all. These are streamers that will suck up to Blizzard to get a few extra beta keys to give away so they can earn even more money.

Holy paladins are not in a good spot, you can do all the mental gymnastics you want, but the fact that you have to say "if we ignore raid cd, tank cd, mobility and utility then paladins are great" just goes to show how ridiculous that idea is.

I'm talking about the class not the game. Why would he say the class is good if it's not? That's not praising blizzard. Saying the game is good/WoD is good when it's clearly not is sucking up to blizzard. This isn't the point anyway so it doesn't matter. There aren't many top end mythic holy paladin streams I can find.

I've seen a lot of mixed opinions from good Paladins like yourself and good Paladins like Aladya and such. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm not saying holy Paladins are 100% perfect, I was just addressing what you said about not being able to keep up with tanks in 5 mans. I wasn't applying that logic to high end mythic raiding which somehow came into this conversation.

[Leefa]

Sparty smallwood does high end raiding and he's a top end mythic raider

Lol @ calling Sparty a high end raider with his top 250-300 guild...

Holy paladins are not in a good spot, you can do all the mental gymnastics you want, but the fact that you have to say "if we ignore raid cd, tank cd, mobility and utility then paladins are great" just goes to show how ridiculous that idea is.

People just look at the meter and see paladins at the top during testing, so obviously they must be fine right? No need to consider Guardian druid inflation, fight times, cheesing etc.

[Taeldorian]

Lol @ calling Sparty a high end raider with his top 250-300 guild...


People just look at the meter and see paladins at the top during testing, so obviously they must be fine right? No need to consider Guardian druid inflation, fight times, cheesing etc.

I'm glad you adressed a point that had nothing to really do with our conversation. Again, I'm only addressing ONE point that Pacer brought up about chasing down tanks in 5 mans. That's it. I have no idea why high end mythic raiding was brought into this but that's not what I'm talking about right now.

I'll say it again for you. If you take light bringer, you don't need to chase down the tank because he already has the full mastery benefit. You should be standing near someone else (most likely the ranged if you have LB), so chasing down the tank isn't really an issue. This is the only thing i was addressing and for some reason you two brought up multiple other things I wasn't really talking about. I was talking about dungeons, not high end mythic raiding.

[Leefa]

I'm glad you adressed a point that had nothing to really do with our conversation.

I'll say it again for you. If you take light bringer, you don't need to chase down the tank because he already has the full mastery benefit. You should be standing near someone else (most likely the ranged if you have LB), so chasing down the tank isn't really an issue. This is the only thing i was addressing and for some reason you two brought up multiple other things I wasn't really talking about. I was talking about dungeons, not high end mythic raiding.

First off, you - not us - brought up Sparty as something you base your opinion on.

Second, you're now setting up a new situation to prove your point. There is a huge flaw however. First you wont be able to keep your group alive on higher mythic+ difficulties with Lightbringer (assuming you dont outgear it). Second, you may have temporarily solved the mastery issue, but when you're standing "at the ranged" you're going to run into the other major complaint: mobility. You're going to be far away from the tank when the pack dies, so you're going to be slowing down your group.
Now I'm abit confused since you said before that you would pick Lightbringer and stand ahead of the tank to mend the mobility issue, but now you want to stand near the ranged for healing. So which one is it? Do you want to use the example to point out that mobility is fine or do you want to use the example to prove that mastery is fine? Cause you cant be in two places at once. All you've done is prove that both mobility and mastery is a huge issue.

[mcbubble]

-snip-

I'll say it again for you. If you take light bringer, you don't need to chase down the tank because he already has the full mastery benefit. You should be standing near someone else (most likely the ranged if you have LB), so chasing down the tank isn't really an issue. This is the only thing i was addressing and for some reason you two brought up multiple other things I wasn't really talking about. I was talking about dungeons, not high end mythic raiding.

You continue to argue that light bringer will fix our 'need to chase down the tank'...
The fact that we clearly have to chase down the tank proves that we clearly have a catch-up mechanic issue.

[Taeldorian]

You continue to argue that light bringer will fix our 'need to chase down the tank'...
The fact that we clearly have to chase down the tank proves that we clearly have a catch-up mechanic issue.

We don't if we take lightbringer. Atm nothing on that talent tier is really competitive with it. Faith was nerfed from WoD to legion and virtue is definitely a good choice as well. Keep in mind, I'm not saying we don't have mobility issues, I'm saying we don't have to chase down the take. No point in continuing this because it seems you think I'm saying we have no mobility issues which is not what I'm saying.

@Leefa Okay, if Sparty isn't a viable holy paladin for whatever reason, whose another good high end holy paladin to watch? I used to watch shuttle but he doesn't play as much anymore or stream, I haven't seen him in forever. So, whose a good option? I'd seriously love to know.

Lightbringer gives LoD an extra range plus more healing along with allowing our mastery to be effective in two places. Its a very competitive talent and the only one that competes with it in dungeons is virtue. Either way, not gonna continue this until raid testing. I'll wait for these high end holy Paladins to give their opinions.

[EternalBany]

i am not that demanding...i just dont want to have to press HS on cd to heal..

[exriel]

Ok, so I didn't miss anything.

[Deleted]

Ok, so I didn't miss anything.

Bunch of top 10 mythic raiders qq'ing they'll be dropped for op druids, nothing much.

I raid heroic, I'll be fine, yo! Instant cast heals for movement, and if the dumb fuck DH outpaces me too much, I'll let him die. I'll probably spec steed for dungeon runs anyway, shouldn't be too bad for catch up situations.

[Spazzix]

Bunch of top 10 mythic raiders qq'ing they'll be dropped for op druids, nothing much.

The spec is dull.
I have no doubt that holy paladins will be fine on meters. The problem is that you could make them viable on meters by taking away all of their heals except FoL and then giving it 1000% SP scaling. That does not make the spec interesting.
I can go into a dungeon and keep the party topped off, spam out all of my dps cds, and still feel like I'm waiting for things to do. That's why I'm saying the spec is dull. And when the content is harder, then what? I'm supposed to be placated by FoL spam?
"Oh, but single target spam has always been at the core of holy paladin." Yes, but I felt like I had other meaningful things to do in the past. The issue here is that they took away holy power—instead of making spenders/generation compelling—and then didn't fill the void with anything. They increased HS's cd, but I don't have anything interesting to use while I wait for it. Beacon is stuck on the GCD (not something a lot of people played with, but a small way of giving "more buttons!" players something to do). They've made it harder to justify Holy Prism as an option for a more active player. And, JoL was a great way to make some of us who actually enjoyed selfless healer (calm down, I'm not saying you had to enjoy it) feel like judgment is worthless.

Bottom line: I've enjoyed holy paladin in the past, I'm enjoying holy paladin on live, but I don't enjoy holy paladin on beta.

Mobility is no different. In mythic raiding and high mythic+, speed (vs the ability to instant cast and move at +0%) will be an issue, but even if you want to dismiss that and say that's a small set of the playerbase, fine. It's still boring to run around without a speed ability. Mobility feels good. It's fun to use. Having a talented 3 sec boost on a 60 second timer is not fun (no, not even on a horse).

[Kaslia]

My main concern about mastery and especially the mobility is that it won't matter if your top heals. If you can't keep up or cause issues with mythic raiding and high end dungeons you will be sat over a healer who can provide better. The raid doesn't have to worry about them. You WILL be kicked in dungeons, because the groups will not wait for you to begin pulling trash. You mark my words, this will be an issue, especially later when people want to breeze thro and have things on farm. Soon as they see a Holy paly they will leave group or you will be kicked. This is a guarantee! So many have given great examples as to how this will be an issue. If you can't perform your job in mythic raiding bec your class doesn't have the tools to do the mechanics, you will be sat. I think all everyone is stating is that this is an issue they can foresee. Can you imagine having to do that boss in MOP raid, the big dinosaur where you had to kite it and if you didn't do it right, he killed you. What about the bosses who had the wind tunnels you had to avoid. Speed is what made it successful. What about bosses like Iron Quon. Palies will not be able to do them bosses effectively. What about Jikun? you needed your speed of light to push against his wind from falling off the platform. Some other bosses if you fell off it was insta death.

I don't have a beta account but I have watched many videos and its amazing how the groups are just standing around waiting for the healer to show up so they could continue to pull and those that didn't wait, by the time the paly showed up everyone in the group was below half hp. It's a concern for old and new content. The meters are only one thing, there is mechanics, enjoying the class, depending on the class as a raid and group wise. To me cata was the best time I enjoyed playing a Holy Paladin albeit HR needed another small nerf. But overall it was fun to play back then, so much versatility in our toolkit for any situation. Some people who do not raid mythics will prob like the Legion version of Holy Paladin. IF you ever played cata then I am sure you wouldn't like the new version on Legion. I would say since there is basically not much communication then Blizzard is going with what is currently on beta. It will make it to live when the majority of people are playing for themselves before some of the glaring issues are fixed and they will be band aid's to fix it.

[Amantino]

2. Is this intended? IIRC BoP and bubble have always been able to remove shit like that, so I'm not sure that's intended. If it is that's ridiculous but I'm unsure if this is intended or not.

I don't think this is ridiculous at all. Being able to nullify mechanics is beyond silly. Iron Maidens Penetrating Shot comes to mind. The way BoP worked with Blackhand's Marked for Death is how it should work imo, block damage during the BoP, but not nullify/remove debuff. Sucks being nerfed, but I fully support it.



My only major concern is the lack of movement. It will be an issue in it's current form, period. I don't believe Blizzard are dumb enough to leave the current Sac go live, so I'm not too worried about that. Equally stupid with having to go to Dalaran/Inn to change a talent. Just something they haven't fixed yet after removing glyphs.

[Supliftz]

He is neither a high end raider nor a credible source, him, towellie and a couple of other streamers are not trustworthy at all. These are streamers that will suck up to Blizzard to get a few extra beta keys to give away so they can earn even more money.

Holy paladins are not in a good spot, you can do all the mental gymnastics you want, but the fact that you have to say "if we ignore raid cd, tank cd, mobility and utility then paladins are great" just goes to show how ridiculous that idea is.

Just to kinda echo pacer's point. There's actually zero reason to play holy paladin over a resto druid who spends most of his gcds covering tanks to make up for beacon. The druid will do more healing, offer a better tank cd, have better utility, and have a better raid cd.

Holy paladin is in a really bad spot, and it has nothing to do with numbers atm. Everything to do with lacking tools.

[EternalBany]

well i only play holy paladin and mistweaver monk, would you say i´d be best leveling my monk first given the current state of the beta for holydins?
i dont have beta access

[Deleted]

The spec is dull.
I have no doubt that holy paladins will be fine on meters. The problem is that you could make them viable on meters by taking away all of their heals except FoL and then giving it 1000% SP scaling. That does not make the spec interesting.
I can go into a dungeon and keep the party topped off, spam out all of my dps cds, and still feel like I'm waiting for things to do. That's why I'm saying the spec is dull. And when the content is harder, then what? I'm supposed to be placated by FoL spam?
"Oh, but single target spam has always been at the core of holy paladin." Yes, but I felt like I had other meaningful things to do in the past. The issue here is that they took away holy power—instead of making spenders/generation compelling—and then didn't fill the void with anything. They increased HS's cd, but I don't have anything interesting to use while I wait for it. Beacon is stuck on the GCD (not something a lot of people played with, but a small way of giving "more buttons!" players something to do). They've made it harder to justify Holy Prism as an option for a more active player. And, JoL was a great way to make some of us who actually enjoyed selfless healer (calm down, I'm not saying you had to enjoy it) feel like judgment is worthless.

Bottom line: I've enjoyed holy paladin in the past, I'm enjoying holy paladin on live, but I don't enjoy holy paladin on beta.

Mobility is no different. In mythic raiding and high mythic+, speed (vs the ability to instant cast and move at +0%) will be an issue, but even if you want to dismiss that and say that's a small set of the playerbase, fine. It's still boring to run around without a speed ability. Mobility feels good. It's fun to use. Having a talented 3 sec boost on a 60 second timer is not fun (no, not even on a horse).

I get you. I might even agree when I've given it some play time - we'll see. I'm anticipating that the lack of holy power is going to make me feel like it's more fluid, nothing frustrated me more than feeling locked into a rotation in a role that simply does not suit being locked into a rotation. You're either inefficient because you're "wasting" holy power, or inefficient because you're overhealing. For some reason, psychologically, I'm ok with leaving an ability off cooldown until it's needed but the whole holy power thing really bugged me. Maybe 2 years of using Holy Power as Ret did this to me, I dunno.

Maybe that fluidity has come at the cost of some complexity, I can totally see why some (maybe most) might find that dull.

The whole baseline mobility reduction thing will feel frustrating but everyone's base movement is reduced now, so that's not class specific - and as for the "fun" of using a speed boost - is 70% speed over 8 seconds every 45 seconds really that much more fun than 120% over 3 seconds every 45 seconds? Like, really? Sure, you won't travel as far at full speed, but in my experience some of that 8 second was wasted most of the time anyway because you had to stop and y'know... cast a heal.

[siccora]

Just to kinda echo pacer's point. There's actually zero reason to play holy paladin over a resto druid who spends most of his gcds covering tanks to make up for beacon. The druid will do more healing, offer a better tank cd, have better utility, and have a better raid cd.

Holy paladin is in a really bad spot, and it has nothing to do with numbers atm. Everything to do with lacking tools.

so you think that even with a maxed out artifact, holy paladins still wont be in a good spot? i'm talking to my mates and they say, that you cannot only judge the class right now because of beta, artifact and missing content. but i understand the argument. damn. i was so sure i stick with pala but after reading so much negativity about the class design.…

[Taeldorian]

so you think that even with a maxed out artifact, holy paladins still wont be in a good spot? i'm talking to my mates and they say, that you cannot only judge the class right now because of beta, artifact and missing content. but i understand the argument. damn. i was so sure i stick with pala but after reading so much negativity about the class design.…

You're reading one person saying holy Paladins aren't viable. They are. It also depends on your raid composition. For example in legion we have a Resto Druid and a holy priest so I'm going holy paladin. I know plenty of people that are switching to bear/paladin tank composition in legion because they have the best synergy. It's up to your raid comp and no, you don't need to switch to a Resto Druid unless your raid leader specifically demands it. I'm not sure what the best healer set up in legion is but I would assume Resto Druid holy paladin and holy priest (if you have a bloodlust already, if not then Resto shaman).

I'm hoping that they will tune sac and our auras a bit more to be impactful in raids. That would be pretty helpful.