Are you satisfied with the current iteration of Ret in the Legion beta?

[Lucetia]

So can someone explain the purpose of Justicars Vengence?

Do you stop using templars verdict if you choose this talent?

I selected it while screwing around on PTR and I don't quite get what I should be doing, waiting every time for 5 holy power instead of using TV at 3 holy power?

Also agree with previous poster, while there was SOME downtime due to RNG on Ret, WoD rotation was pretty damn fluid and the TV/DS procs were fluid as well.

You still use TV. JV is more when you need to self heal yourself, as it is on the self heal tier along with Word of Glory (1-5 HP) and something else. Using TV is still your best bet. Only time I use JV is when I need a heal and if I can stun the target otherwise the heal feels terrible.

[Teleros]

So can someone explain the purpose of Justicars Vengence?

1. When you need to heal (it acts as lifesteal, so it's bad vs absorbs and when you over-kill targets).
2. Divine Purpose procs, because they're free.
3. Stacking Crusade quickly.
4. In place of Templar's Verdict but only against stunned targets.

Do you stop using templars verdict if you choose this talent?

No.

Also why take blade of wrath?

Holy damage + DoT vs Physical damage.

[AztechZero]

Can't say I'm a fan of the whole "burst window" style of gameplay ret seems to have in Legion. Even if the numbers are/were good I wouldn't play it, just don't find it fun. The same thing led me to stop playing warriors for a while in the not so distant past. Fluidity of combat is a big deal for me.

[Lucetia]

1. When you need to heal (it acts as lifesteal, so it's bad vs absorbs and when you over-kill targets).
2. Divine Purpose procs, because they're free.
4. In place of Templar's Verdict but only against stunned targets.

Those are the only viable times. So basically if your Hammer is up or if Wake can stun it due to be undead/demon.

3. Stacking Crusade quickly.

Actually that is a bad idea. Using the 3 HP moves would be better to stack it quicker. Only time using JV for stacks is beneficial is having stacks then pop Wings.

[Teleros]

Actually that is a bad idea. Using the 3 HP moves would be better to stack it quicker. Only time using JV for stacks is beneficial is having stacks then pop Wings.

Well, I'll wait for Solsacra or someone to say for certain what the best way is*, but if you bank 5 HP and Wake, you can get to 10/15 stacks in 2-3 GCDs (3 if Wake is on the GCD), ie 4.5secs tops. That means more time with high damage and high haste (+20% to both after 2 JVs), which will in turn make getting to 15 stacks easier.

*Basically, it comes down to whether using inefficient HP spenders (JV) to stack quickly beats using efficient HP spenders (TV) to stack slower. No idea personally.

[TITAN308]

Oh I see, somehow I missed the text about the self heal on JV.

Herp Derp on my end.

[Rikkof]

Ret is in a dangerous place right now, and i fully espect that rets will lose spots in raiding enviroment
The burst windows are atrocious, if you somehow need to move few yards, you are TOASTED

[OrcsRLame]

Ret is in a dangerous place right now, and i fully espect that rets will lose spots in raiding enviroment
The burst windows are atrocious, if you somehow need to move few yards, you are TOASTED

Solution: Just don't sleep after Legion launches. Walk into that first raid with full maxed Titanforged/socket gear in every slot with a legendary and a fully maxed out artifact weapon.

Then you'll be mediocre enough to justify your raid spot in combination with your blessings.

[Lucetia]

Well, I'll wait for Solsacra or someone to say for certain what the best way is*, but if you bank 5 HP and Wake, you can get to 10/15 stacks in 2-3 GCDs (3 if Wake is on the GCD), ie 4.5secs tops. That means more time with high damage and high haste (+20% to both after 2 JVs), which will in turn make getting to 15 stacks easier.

*Basically, it comes down to whether using inefficient HP spenders (JV) to stack quickly beats using efficient HP spenders (TV) to stack slower. No idea personally.

Eh, that doesn't make sense. Banking 5 HP for JV will get you 5 stacks (ie 10%). Using Wake won't make a difference at all in terms of the boost except for damage. Even then you think about these on situations of bosses where the stun won't matter so you won't get the 100% boost. Getting 10-15 stacks in 2-3 GCD's? Not sure how that is possible as the crusade stacks only work per Holy Power which wake, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Blade all don't do.

Also, not sure how TV stacking is slower compared to JV. TV you can do 2x in the time it would take to stack JV and wait for judgement unless you are just applying the stacks for the sake of stacking.

I also could just be misunderstanding completely on what you mean too.

[Scratches]

Do I think Ret is fun in Legion? Sure, so I answered yes.

Is it more fun than what I consider to be the pinnacle of Ret, Wrath? Hell no. Is it more fun than it is now, in Warlords? Fucksticks on a biscuit, yes.

WoD Ret just feels all sorts of sad and bland, like eating mayonnaise right out of the jar with your hand. At least Legion's burst window sort of gameplay with Judgment is mildly compelling. Plus, the new mastery basically makes Judgment a heavy hitter, which I'm all for. The new Greater Blessings are....interesting... certainly way more interesting than the set-and-forget static stat buffs as they are now in WoD. I imagine most will just cast all 3 on themselves and forget about them, but it allows for a bit of support-y gameplay: healer's running low on mana -> blessing of wisdom; someone taking a bit too much damage -> blessing of kings; etc. New talents also allow you to vary your gameplay a bit, which is also nice.

I wish they would've gotten rid of Holy Power completely, like they did with Holy and Protection, but they've at least finally made it a bit more compelling than it has been since, what, Cataclysm..?

Lastly, I hate hate hate that they axed Hammer of Wrath, but that thing has been circling the drain for so long it was almost inevitable... just a shade of its former glory, it was... But still, overall, I do think it's fun, aye.

[Snegovik]

Do I think Ret is fun in Legion? Sure, so I answered yes.

Is it more fun than what I consider to be the pinnacle of Ret, Wrath? Hell no. Is it more fun than it is now, in Warlords? Fucksticks on a biscuit, yes.

WoD Ret just feels all sorts of sad and bland, like eating mayonnaise right out of the jar with your hand. At least Legion's burst window sort of gameplay with Judgment is mildly compelling. Plus, the new mastery basically makes Judgment a heavy hitter, which I'm all for. The new Greater Blessings are....interesting... certainly way more interesting than the set-and-forget static stat buffs as they are now in WoD. I imagine most will just cast all 3 on themselves and forget about them, but it allows for a bit of support-y gameplay: healer's running low on mana -> blessing of wisdom; someone taking a bit too much damage -> blessing of kings; etc. New talents also allow you to vary your gameplay a bit, which is also nice.

I wish they would've gotten rid of Holy Power completely, like they did with Holy and Protection, but they've at least finally made it a bit more compelling than it has been since, what, Cataclysm..?

Lastly, I hate hate hate that they axed Hammer of Wrath, but that thing has been circling the drain for so long it was almost inevitable... just a shade of its former glory, it was... But still, overall, I do think it's fun, aye.

Well u can only cast blessings outside of combat, so if healer is going OOM or some1 is taking a lot of dmg, there is nothing u can do about it =).
Also i assume from your post that you do not find it "fun" to be @ high end of rated pvp

[Scratches]

Well u can only cast blessings outside of combat

Interesting. Never noticed that change. Oh well, so just do it pre-emptively.... I think this person's going to need this. Better? Still allows for more varied gameplay than what we have now.

Also i assume from your post that you do not find it "fun" to be @ high end of rated pvp

After Wrath, I stopped caring, you're right. You got me. That so obviously invalidates everything I said; how could I be so blind.

[Snegovik]

Interesting. Never noticed that change. Oh well, so just do it pre-emptively.... I think this person's going to need this. Better? Still allows for more varied gameplay than what we have now.



After Wrath, I stopped caring, you're right. You got me. That so obviously invalidates everything I said; how could I be so blind.

<3 no worries not everything you said, just pvp wise =), pve u may as well be 100% correct, Reg stated that in Mythic gear Ret on PTR hits harder both burst and sustain than on life.

I cant say anything about Mythic gear, since my Ret is full PvP gear with a bit over 90% mastery speced and apperantly mastery is worst stat for Ret atm on PTR..so maybe thats why Ret feels like shit for me.

[Scratches]

<3 no worries not everything you said, just pvp wise =), pve u may as well be 100% correct, Reg stated that in Mythic gear Ret on PTR hits harder both burst and sustain than on life.

I cant say anything about Mythic gear, since my Ret is full PvP gear with a bit over 90% mastery speced and apperantly mastery is worst stat for Ret atm on PTR..so maybe thats why Ret feels like shit for me.

Lol, it's cool. That's entirely possible, too. I mean, it shouldn't be that bad, considering more mastery makes Judgment hit harder, but it's entirely possible...

[Zenislav]

I just realized that I loged to Dk first. Been few hours I had been loged w him. I... don't want to log my paladin... I am trying to force myself... But i cant re log...

[Teleros]

I also could just be misunderstanding completely on what you mean too.

Sorry, think I was a bit unclear:

Using JV you can get 15 stacks in (no procs, haste, TFOJ, no Judgement during Crusade) 12secs (4.5 + 7.5):

5 HP > Judge > wait 1 GCD > Crusade (no GCD) > JV > Wake > JV > CS > BoJ > CS > CS > JV > normal rotation resumes

Using TV you can get 15 stacks in (no procs, haste, TFOJ, Judgement during Crusade) 16.5 secs:

5 HP > Judge > wait 1 GCD > Crusade (no GCD) > TV > CS > TV > Wake > TV > CS > BoJ > Judge > TV > CS > TV > normal rotation resumes

2/3 JV casts will have been boosted by Judgement
4/5 TV casts will have been boosted by Judgement

+

In practice, both will be quicker because Haste will reduce ability CDs and the GCD, but the JV method will benefit more because you'll have more haste (and +% damage) thanks to stacking Crusade faster. The JV method also means you have more the double the time remaining once you hit 15 stacks (8secs vs 3.5secs), though this difference becomes less pronounced if you have 3/3 Wrath of the Ashbringer (15.5secs vs 11secs), and if you actually take into account Haste.

I don't have beta access though, so I can't test it out much more than what you see above, and as a result may be wrong. If @Solsacra or someone with beta access and some decent maths skills would like to work on it some more, I'm sure we'd all appreciate it .

+

Minor notes:

• Whilst only 2/3 of the JVs are buffed by Judgement, you have 8-15.5secs left in which to use your normal rotation, whereas for the TV method you have only 3.5-11secs to do the same: thus the comparison between 2/3 buffed JVs vs 4/5 buffed TVs isn't entirely fair due to the time difference.
• JV works well with Divine Purpose already: if you want to use Divine Purpose you really should pick JV as well.
• If the JV method of Crusade stacking is also the best for PvE DPS... yeah I see JV basically being mandatory for most PvE purposes.
• Whilst the above is concerned with PvE, I suspect that for reasons of burst DPS, the JV method will beat out the TV method. Up-time on targets can't be assured in PvP to the same extent as it can be in PvE, so the quicker you can pump out the damage, the better.

[Wrecktangle]

Do I think Ret is fun in Legion? Sure, so I answered yes.

Is it more fun than what I consider to be the pinnacle of Ret, Wrath? Hell no. Is it more fun than it is now, in Warlords? Fucksticks on a biscuit, yes.

WoD Ret just feels all sorts of sad and bland, like eating mayonnaise right out of the jar with your hand. At least Legion's burst window sort of gameplay with Judgment is mildly compelling. Plus, the new mastery basically makes Judgment a heavy hitter, which I'm all for. The new Greater Blessings are....interesting... certainly way more interesting than the set-and-forget static stat buffs as they are now in WoD. I imagine most will just cast all 3 on themselves and forget about them, but it allows for a bit of support-y gameplay: healer's running low on mana -> blessing of wisdom; someone taking a bit too much damage -> blessing of kings; etc. New talents also allow you to vary your gameplay a bit, which is also nice.

I wish they would've gotten rid of Holy Power completely, like they did with Holy and Protection, but they've at least finally made it a bit more compelling than it has been since, what, Cataclysm..?

Lastly, I hate hate hate that they axed Hammer of Wrath, but that thing has been circling the drain for so long it was almost inevitable... just a shade of its former glory, it was... But still, overall, I do think it's fun, aye.

I won't comment on WoD play and why you think its boring (you didn't actually provide a single reason why you believe this), but you're completely mistaken on the greater blessings being "more interesting".

1) They are set and forget buffs. You cannot change them in combat. You will not use anything other than 3X Might in a raiding environment, ever. This is mechanically no different than the stale buffs we provided before.

2) Now you're punished if a buff is put on a DPS who dies (or if you want to play sub-optimally kings/wis). You have no option to move it or recast it. You just lost DPS.

3) You now have to do additional research on which classes do the most DPS on which fights if you care about doing the most damage by selecting optimal targets for your 3x Mights.

4) You mention New talents allow you to vary gameplay? What talents are you looking at that I am not? You have 2 choices in every single talent tree. You have single target or AOE, or automatic application denied talents like Equalibri(errr. "Holy Wrath"), or our awesome new Wings talent that is actually a DPS decrease to pick, let alone use poorly.

5) What about judgment being a "heavy hitter" makes it fun to use? That it restricts your entire gameplay model? You must be a bizzaro version of Ret Paladin then LOL.

6) You mention the new mastery makes Judgment hit harder, ok sure, but did you actually know that it has no interaction with our already laughable lack of AOE? So our old mastery while terribly boring, at least it contributed to all of our damage in a useful manner. The new one? Nope just single target.

[Neldarie]

He prolly liked the dumb rolling face on freestorm proc wrath model where you literally never had to use your head while playing.

[Lucetia]

6) You mention the new mastery makes Judgment hit harder, ok sure, but did you actually know that it has no interaction with our already laughable lack of AOE? So our old mastery while terribly boring, at least it contributed to all of our damage in a useful manner. The new one? Nope just single target.

Not disputing what you said as I agree with a lot of it. I just wanted to mention that our mastery has a "little bit" of AoE in, but the problem is you have to actually talent for it. In order the the mastery to have any effect on AoE you have to choose Greater Judgement regardless which cleaves the judgement to hit 2 other targets also applying the debuff. That way when you Divine Storm you will also be hitting harder. Granted it's a two fold attack.

Now is it ideal? Heck no, because we are basically pigeonholed into a talent. Though to be honest, I feel like pretty much every row has that one talent that you have to or you are severely crippling yourself. There's no choice at all, just the illusion. At least in WoD a few rows had talents that were situationally viable or viable to take and influenced how you played.

[Gloriandus]

I was kind of getting used to the zero mobility until testing the demon invasion in the Crossroads just now; a DK gripped the mob I was attacking, and then I could only grimace as I slowly lumbered back to it, watching it die before I was even within Judgment range.

Flash of Light might as well not even be on our hotbar, it heals for so little.

50% lol, 50% feelsbadman

I will say that getting my haste 15%+ makes Ret feel a LOT less tedious.