[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Enhance Shamans have been said to be similar. I'm testing it out right now.

[Morally Grey Storm]

i'll repeat myself as well then

I was not asking about opener.
Why would you mention it is beyond me.

divine purpose as currently crusade sucks.

I guess this arguement of ours is at deadend.
@Teleros thank you for putting it well and coherent

[garonne]

tested it on the pvp realm with extremely shitty stats

crit (2959 - 8.45%) = total of 13.45%
haste (1957 - 6.02%) = total of 6.02
mastery (1928 - 8.26% [16.52% for judgment]) = total of 20.26% [ 40.52 for judgment]
versatility (8188 - 20.47%) = total of 20.47
ilvl 802

with these stats, im looking at 4-6 empty gcds every 30 seconds (no procs)

do with the information what you will

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Enhance Shamans have been said to be similar. I'm testing it out right now.

they're barely similar, only similarity is builder/spender.

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I was not asking about opener.
Why would you mention it is beyond me.


I guess this arguement of ours is at deadend.

not sure if youre being daft purposely, im not expressing myself correctly or you genuinely dont understand what im saying.
so let me try again...

the rotation is the same after the opener and outside of the opener all that changes is wake. without it your rotation after the two spells you mentioned would be -> judge, tv, zeal again. bc of wake this won't happen until the second judge so when wake has around 15-10 secs left on cd.

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Seeing as Wake is on a 30sec CD, I think it's probably best to look at scenarios when it's not up, seeing as they'll occur about twice as often :P (10sec or lower CD on Judgement after haste etc vs 30sec CD on Wake).

In terms of GCD use, Zeal takes 3 to recharge, so Storm is still correct that picking Zeal (or Greater Judgement I guess) means you'll sometimes have nothing to push, as charges on spells cannot be recovered simultaneously.

That's the whole point Storm's making. Therefore:
.

i guess you didnt read what i said before? and if that's his point as well, neither did he...

there will be open gcds...

i never said otherwise.

[Teleros]

with these stats, im looking at 4-6 empty gcds every 30 seconds (no procs)

Urgh.

That means not doing stuff about 20% - 30% of the time (before Haste). DPS numbers might be okay, but what a sucky "rotation". TFOJ definitely looks more appealing from a gameplay perspective.

i guess you didnt read what i said before? and if that's his point as well, neither did he...
...
i never said otherwise.

So I guess we can move on then ?

[garonne]

He's got a point.

what you and Aeluron fail to understand is that to have zeal on a 3 sec cd means you can use it every other GCD correct? however, with judgment, you want to use the least amount of zeal during the duration and have it recharging, not having it capped waiting to be used. Then, you also have wake of ashes which grants holy power that also delays the usage of zeal. At 3 sec cd, from judge->wake->tv, zeal has sat there for two gcds at cap, the damage on zeal is relatively potent and to have it sit there at cap isn't a good thing. With fires of justice, crusade strike is a weak attack, you get the benefit of more holy power for more TV so having it sit there when you can hit more TV is fine as the disparity in damage between TV and crusade strike is a lot larger than TV and zeal.

so no, if you're using zeal, you'd opt for a lower cd yes but not 3 secs. you want it low enough to smooth the rotation out but after that, you want stats to increase its damage (crit/vers) or tv's damage (mastery).

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Urgh.

That means not doing stuff about 20% - 30% of the time (before Haste). DPS numbers might be okay, but what a sucky "rotation". TFOJ definitely looks more appealing from a gameplay perspective.

those stats are horrendous. you see the high amount of versatility? a pve player is not gonna have that high amount. also, thats ilvl 802, roughly 43 ilvl below raiding. 20-30% will probably end up being 10-15% by raiding gear and thats equal to 3-4.5 secs of waiting every 30 secs. if thats a "sucky rotation" for you, then i can't argue with you as it would become just a subjective view and a matter of opinion.

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

You are at zero combopoints.
You hit BoJ, you hit Zeal, you hit what?

My GD keyboard, so hard that all the letters pop out all over the place hitting me in the face as I rage in German at the horrible play style that is Ret.

Is this the correct answer?

[Morally Grey Storm]

My GD keyboard, so hard that all the letters pop out all over the place hitting me in the face as I rage in German at the horrible play style that is Ret.

Is this the correct answer?

As I'm typing from phone, I can't post the appropriate picture, so just please imagine Rogal Dorn in a Centurion armor saying "No.".

[Aeluron Lightsong]

All the more reason to buff Crusader Strike a bit more since our damage isn't very good either but I've said that already.

[Lumineus]

You are at zero combopoints.
You hit BoJ, you hit Zeal, you hit what?

Celestalon. With a 2x4.

[ruiizu]

Celestalon. With a 2x4.

If you're in range actually you should be hitting Zeal before BoJ so your first charge can begin cooling down. Despite BoJ hitting harder, the charge system changes the order you might expect to use attacks.

Also I have to say with Divine Purpose and Fires of Justice you sometimes (not always) end up with stuff off CD but Judgment isn't quite ready so you're stuck with reverse CD syndrome--not attacking is the right choice (assuming hopefully only 1 charge of CS has recharged).

Zeal is pretty okay, but if you hate ever having gaps in your rotation then you'll probably never want to use it.

[Ulthane]

So.... odd thing....

Consecration, Zeal, Divine Hammer.... im actually having luck with that set up.

Conc, Zeal, DH, Zeal, Con, Zeal

After a while you find an odd priority in combat

1. DH: of zeal is at 1 charge or less
2. Con: if zeal is at 1 charge or less
3. Zeal: if DH, Con on vd or approaching 2 stacks.

Judgment due to 8 second duration i get to be more liberal with it.

Dumps vary on what you are dumping with.

So far, 0 downtime other than mobility and having constant streams of damage. Could be worst idea ever but most fun im having with the spec....

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Hell.... you could argue opening with Judgment as semi filler in various situations where WoA isnt present.... again worst ideas ever but hey. Try it out

[Temna]

@Ulthane hey fun is fun, tried that setup earlier and could only imagine the fun in fights like HfA etc. Still, testy testy do~

[Ulthane]

@Ulthane hey fun is fun, tried that setup earlier and could only imagine the fun in fights like HfA etc. Still, testy testy do~

So far it feels and looks like there is actually no problem. Example.

Opener
-Judgment
-Consecration
-Zeal
-Divine Hammer
-Zeal
-Consecration or Zeal depending.
-Divine Hammer

So basically i can open with a Judgment and not get punished for it because its already back up when I have 5 holy power.

Granted this changes with Wake of Ashes drastically but its there. The combined damage stream of Consecration and Divine Hammer is very noticeable and it looks nice, flashy everywhere.

Now I gave Holy Wrath a try and Blinding Light a chance... no... just no. Cant do it bro X_X

[ruiizu]

So far it feels and looks like there is actually no problem. Example.

Opener
-Judgment
-Consecration
-Zeal
-Divine Hammer
-Zeal
-Consecration or Zeal depending.
-Divine Hammer

So basically i can open with a Judgment and not get punished for it because its already back up when I have 5 holy power.

Granted this changes with Wake of Ashes drastically but its there. The combined damage stream of Consecration and Divine Hammer is very noticeable and it looks nice, flashy everywhere.

Now I gave Holy Wrath a try and Blinding Light a chance... no... just no. Cant do it bro X_X

Seems like an okay rotation. I find Divine Hammer feels odd to use but it actually does pretty good damage (250% Holy Weapon damage I think?)

[Ulthane]

Seems like an okay rotation. I find Divine Hammer feels odd to use but it actually does pretty good damage (250% Holy Weapon damage I think?)

Actually gave this a spin with Crusade using JV to bring up stacks super fast. This is how it panned out for me.

-Judgment (Opener)
-Consecration
-Zeal
-Divine hammer
-Zeal
-Consecration
-Divine Hammer
-Zeal
-Judgment
-Crusade
-JV
-Wake of Ashes
-JV

Rotation sped up, 0 down time due to haste. Had 15 stacks before half time.

So I think this could be something to keep an eye out on to see if its going to be a viable thing. Now I used JV only to build the stacks up faster but over all it feels nice, at least to me. Viable? Not sure at all, maybe? Maybe not? But given the pile of turds we have at this point i think im going to play whats fun and hope it pans out for the most part. Way I see it, not gonna get shot in the face and die for playing it flashy like.

But in all seriousness, Holy Wrath just doesnt fit into anything. I tried super hard to love that thing, I tried to invoke Stockholm syndrome. Just cant.

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Also given divine Hammer having a lower CD than BOJ and BOW you have it like this.

BOJ = Instant, 12 second cd.
DH = Instant, 8 second cd, ticks every two seconds.

So this means the rotation you will have about 100% uptime on it. So now its like this.

Instant + 4 ticks = 5 ticks per 8 seconds. Per 12 seconds its 7 ticks.

Thats 50% x 7 = 350% over that 12 second duration with 100% uptime vs 405% physical damage mitigated by armor on a 12 second cd. (Virtues giving it that huge crit)

The DH in the rotation even with Zeal is lining up with Judgment windows 100% and ive found I have wiggle room to throw Judgment early due to the 8 second cd and still get the same amount of finishers out. Which means that on a PvP standpoint the Judgment talents got a severe buff with this type of set up.

So yea, i feel Divine Hammer at this point is worthy of being tried. I could be HORRIFICALLY wrong on everything but its something to consider given how shit everything is.

[Temna]

@Ulthane haha, blinding light MAY get a pass (though I do kinda dig the new repentance <.<)

I will say though in all honesty, I don't overly find the current step up THAT bad. Bit hollow overall, but I was expecting much worse. That being said there are several irksome elements that I wish would be addressed.

GBoM needs to be thrown into a well, with badgers who shoot bees out their mouths and all they've had to listen to is Justin Bieber albums. It can join Holy Wrath there as well. They are toxic mechanics and need to die.

Mobility; just give the steed baseline and add an augment talent for each spec, honestly...maybe 10% foot ms on HotC

Making Judgement a buff would maybe add a bit more...substance and not feel too much like someone copied Colossus Smash.

Also bugs...MANY BUGS, HANDLE IT.

Those Id say are my major concerns, I am aware that this makes me a heretic so theres some complimentary pitchforks and torches.

[Merrena]

Instant + 4 ticks = 5 ticks per 8 seconds. Per 12 seconds its 7 ticks.

I think it may be 8 ticks at 12 seconds because you have casted it twice and you're missing an instant tick at 8 seconds (obviously depending on if you recast it immediately).

[Ulthane]

I think it may be 8 ticks at 12 seconds because you have casted it twice and you're missing an instant tick at 8 seconds (obviously depending on if you recast it immediately).

You know what... you are right... so thats 400% weapon damage as holy over 12 seconds <_<;;;;;;;;;;;;

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@Ulthane haha, blinding light MAY get a pass (though I do kinda dig the new repentance <.<)

I will say though in all honesty, I don't overly find the current step up THAT bad. Bit hollow overall, but I was expecting much worse. That being said there are several irksome elements that I wish would be addressed.

GBoM needs to be thrown into a well, with badgers who shoot bees out their mouths and all they've had to listen to is Justin Bieber albums. It can join Holy Wrath there as well. They are toxic mechanics and need to die.

Mobility; just give the steed baseline and add an augment talent for each spec, honestly...maybe 10% foot ms on HotC

Making Judgement a buff would maybe add a bit more...substance and not feel too much like someone copied Colossus Smash.

Also bugs...MANY BUGS, HANDLE IT.

Those Id say are my major concerns, I am aware that this makes me a heretic so theres some complimentary pitchforks and torches.

Very true, at this point im experimenting and throwing what I find to other people.

[ruiizu]

You know what... you are right... so thats 400% weapon damage as holy over 12 seconds <_<;;;;;;;;;;;;

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Very true, at this point im experimenting and throwing what I find to other people.

The main loss is the extra range on Blade of Wrath/Justice, but that's probably not a huge issue. For PVP though Divine Hammer's damage can be avoided by walking away, whereas the Blades deal instant damage.

[Reghame]

The main loss is the extra range on Blade of Wrath/Justice, but that's probably not a huge issue. For PVP though Divine Hammer's damage can be avoided by walking away, whereas the Blades deal instant damage.

And the holypower gains from BoJ or BoW, do not forget that when you spec for this you begin to clash with your judgment window as well which could potentially make you have to spend a finisher outside of the widow if you are not completely attentive about it.

+ you have to be in melee range for all 12 seconds with your comparison which is never truly possible in most encounters.

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btw those complaining about downtime, im fairly sure sol posted a simcraft using zeal ES BoW and DP at max level with a unlocked artifact weapon a couple pages back. This showed we had something like 8% or so idle (aka doing nothing or empty gcds as you refer to it) time. which by comparison to today if you do not factor in our stupid tier bonus and how short the fights are ATM to where we have wings up for the entire fight, we had more downtime on live than we do on beta.

take this for what you will.

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The main loss is the extra range on Blade of Wrath/Justice, but that's probably not a huge issue. For PVP though Divine Hammer's damage can be avoided by walking away, whereas the Blades deal instant damage.

the range does matter quite a bit. its part of the reason why people take live FV in the first place which both spells have identical ranges (live 12 TV range with FV, BoJ 12 yard range)