[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Clash the DK]

With the recent changes to Judgment, we are unexpectedly in a much better place.

You can now build your Ret Paladin so that it actually feels similar to the spec you've been playing for years now. I've been testing with FV, TFoJ, VB, and DP. This combo has yielded the best gameplay IMO. We now lead off with Judgment which just feels right. The main priorities are to keep Judgment on cooldown and never use TV without Judgment being applied to your target. This is now pretty easy. No more waiting on Judgment or situations where you have to decide on whether or not to waste CP. Everything flows very well.

But that is only with the aforementioned selection of talents. Taking Zeal or Divine Hammer wrecks everything. So we still have that problem. It seems we have been given the choice to deal improved AoE damage or have fun playing the spec. No having both. But, that's just my opinion.

[Ulthane]

The main loss is the extra range on Blade of Wrath/Justice, but that's probably not a huge issue. For PVP though Divine Hammer's damage can be avoided by walking away, whereas the Blades deal instant damage.

Well to be fair in PvP all anyone has to do is walk away from us XD

As for any clash in PvE i havent actually ran into that problem. Nonetheless this is just me screwing around at this point because I think nearly anything we do is a bad choice :<

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With the recent changes to Judgment, we are unexpectedly in a much better place.

You can now build your Ret Paladin so that it actually feels similar to the spec you've been playing for years now. I've been testing with FV, TFoJ, VB, and DP. This combo has yielded the best gameplay IMO. We now lead off with Judgment which just feels right. The main priorities are to keep Judgment on cooldown and never use TV without Judgment being applied to your target. This is now pretty easy. No more waiting on Judgment or situations where you have to decide on whether or not to waste CP. Everything flows very well.

But that is only with the aforementioned selection of talents. Taking Zeal or Divine Hammer wrecks everything. So we still have that problem. It seems we have been given the choice to deal improved AoE damage or have fun playing the spec. No having both. But, that's just my opinion.

Zeal personally is okay and im not having a single issue with it. Divine Hammer is interesting because im finding it does actually in it's own weird way weave in well. Like right now, playing a totally bs set up and downtime, issues, things that would be of concern in PvE (mobility aside) is not a problem O.o

Nonetheless its just beta/ptr and right now i want more gold everywhere so im just saying screw it. Just pretty much saying its interesting.

[Qoma]

Zeal personally is okay and im not having a single issue with it. Divine Hammer is interesting because im finding it does actually in it's own weird way weave in well. Like right now, playing a totally bs set up and downtime, issues, things that would be of concern in PvE (mobility aside) is not a problem O.o

Nonetheless its just beta/ptr and right now i want more gold everywhere so im just saying screw it. Just pretty much saying its interesting.

You know what good on you for trying something different, though. Most testers have decided on their favored skills, they aren't working together like they want them to, but they just keep banging their heads against the wall. Blizzard isn't changing things, so that could mean they're stupid (jury still out) or it could mean there's another way to play that people are refusing to look for. Good for you for looking for it. This is what the class needs.

[OrcsRLame]

You know what good on you for trying something different, though. Most testers have decided on their favored skills, they aren't working together like they want them to, but they just keep banging their heads against the wall. Blizzard isn't changing things, so that could mean they're stupid (jury still out) or it could mean there's another way to play that people are refusing to look for. Good for you for looking for it. This is what the class needs.

Fun is great and all but I'm the sort of player that cares a lot about numbers, so I'll play the best build regardless of fun factor.

[istroxpro]

Whats happening to prots damage on PTR? Looks like in PVP it is somehow suppressed, coz even when my tooltip says that avengers shield should hit for 22k holy damage, maximum I could do is 8k damage. Did they do something with tanks in PVP?

[Deleted]

pvp stats and levels are all over the place. you'll probably notice your health and armour are much lower in pvp areas, so there might be an overall damage modifier in light of that.

[istroxpro]

Nope the problem is different. Whei I play Ret I hit exactly as ability tooltip says. When I play prot - in PVP my avengers shield and SoTR hit 70% less, while judgement still hits exactly as it is said in the tooltip. And all 3 these abilities do holy damage, so damage reduction by armor and PVP restrictions is out of question. For example - out of PVP instances my tooltip says 38k holy damage, so it does the exact amount. But when I enter BG, my tooltip says 22k holy damage, while maximum I could do was 8k, while judgement tooltip says 12k damage - it does 12k.

[Teleros]

what you and Aeluron fail to understand is that to have zeal on a 3 sec cd means you can use it every other GCD correct? however, with judgment, you want to use the least amount of zeal during the duration and have it recharging, not having it capped waiting to be used.

Crusader Strike / Zeal on a 3sec CD means we can fill every GCD and never not have a button to push, which for many people will simply feel nicer in terms of gameplay and flow.

And yes, I realise this is entirely a subjective matter, assuming Zeal and TFOJ are basically equal in DPS (which is what Solsacra said IIRC).

those stats are horrendous. you see the high amount of versatility? a pve player is not gonna have that high amount. also, thats ilvl 802, roughly 43 ilvl below raiding. 20-30% will probably end up being 10-15% by raiding gear and thats equal to 3-4.5 secs of waiting every 30 secs. if thats a "sucky rotation" for you, then i can't argue with you as it would become just a subjective view and a matter of opinion.

I think 2-3 GCDs per 30secs is a bit sucky, but at least one can expect it to improve over each tier of raiding content etc. Again, a lot of what's being discussed in this is purely subjective: some people like to push buttons more often than others .

= + =

btw those complaining about downtime, im fairly sure sol posted a simcraft using zeal ES BoW and DP at max level with a unlocked artifact weapon a couple pages back. This showed we had something like 8% or so idle (aka doing nothing or empty gcds as you refer to it) time.

Was this before or after the nerf to Blade of Wrath's CD, etc? I imagine that a longer CD on BoW will hurt it a bit, but as above I think for those who like to fill their GCDs, 10% downtime in the first raiding / PvP tier will be okay.

= + =

In terms of haste values, a quick table for your delectation:

Haste %	CD Reduction	J / BoJ	CS / Zeal	TFOJ	GCD
0%	0%	12 secs	4.5 secs	3.0 secs	1.5 secs
10%	9.1%	10.91	4.91	2.73	1.36
25%	20%	9.6	3.6	2.4	1.2
33%	25%	9.0	3.38	2.25	1.13
50%	33.3%	8.0	3.0	2.0	1.0
66.6%	40%	7.2	2.7	1.8	1.0 (cap)
100%	50%	6.0	2.25	1.5	1.0 (cap)

I rather doubt we'll get 50% haste outside of Heroism etc (unless it's our best stat...?), but 33% should definitely be doable (given what people are reporting earlier in this thread), which means 3 Judgement windows per Wake of Ashes (89% uptime assuming Judgement is always used on CD).

Now, given Ret has a few other buttons to push besides Judgement and TV/DS... I wonder if this means effectively 100% uptime on Judgement? I mean, assuming you aren't playing badly... food for thought.

[Arkadiah]

some things need to be tweaked (especially level 60 row and crusade talent) but i really enjoy the new judgment mechanic.

im trying in beta to reach 33% of haste (now 31.6%) according to teleros list

[Teleros]

im trying in beta to reach 33% of haste (now 31.6%) according to teleros list

Should mean 9.12sec CD on Judgement & BoJ, and up to 87.7% uptime on Judgement's debuff, FYI.

Maths:

CD Reduction = 1 - (1/1.haste%)

So in your case it's 1 - (1/1.316) = 24%

[Deleted]

Whats happening to prots damage on PTR? Looks like in PVP it is somehow suppressed, coz even when my tooltip says that avengers shield should hit for 22k holy damage, maximum I could do is 8k damage. Did they do something with tanks in PVP?

lol prots are still overtuned i think. They are top dps'rs even in single target on dungeons.

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So.... odd thing....

Consecration, Zeal, Divine Hammer.... im actually having luck with that set up.

Conc, Zeal, DH, Zeal, Con, Zeal

After a while you find an odd priority in combat

1. DH: of zeal is at 1 charge or less
2. Con: if zeal is at 1 charge or less
3. Zeal: if DH, Con on vd or approaching 2 stacks.

Judgment due to 8 second duration i get to be more liberal with it.

Dumps vary on what you are dumping with.

So far, 0 downtime other than mobility and having constant streams of damage. Could be worst idea ever but most fun im having with the spec....

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Hell.... you could argue opening with Judgment as semi filler in various situations where WoA isnt present.... again worst ideas ever but hey. Try it out

That thought did occur to me yesterday. With the downtime on zeal, consecration may actually make a good filler. I didn't get to test it cause i was busy watching the euro.
Though my worry with it is that in legion swapping talents may be a pain and that a build that you would only want for trash. Single target it must be pretty sad.

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I know this is kind of off topic, but have any of you found a spec that plays similar to WoD ret?

I havent tried enhancement, but thats my guess. I found fury with the talent that gives a cooldown to raging blow felt alot like old Ret. You got 4 buttons and you mash them off cd. Not quite as good as old Ret, but a similar feel. Good single target damage aswell.

[Morally Grey Storm]

some things need to be tweaked (especially level 60 row and crusade talent) but i really enjoy the new judgment mechanic.

im trying in beta to reach 33% of haste (now 31.6%) according to teleros list

if you'd flamed Beta Ret topic less, you'd probably already reached that haste.

[Chaosinciter]

I know this is kind of off topic, but have any of you found a spec that plays similar to WoD ret?

Enhancement is gonna be my secondary go to if i decide playing 2 rets is a bit too much lol. with the template character was able to do 37k+ sustained dps ST on the raid dummy so they are pretty nice and the rotation is really solid.

[Ulthane]

You know what good on you for trying something different, though. Most testers have decided on their favored skills, they aren't working together like they want them to, but they just keep banging their heads against the wall. Blizzard isn't changing things, so that could mean they're stupid (jury still out) or it could mean there's another way to play that people are refusing to look for. Good for you for looking for it. This is what the class needs.

The issue though is I can say that Holy Wrath.. its... ._.

I tried to use it man. I tried SUPER hard. Can't do it. >< its so wrong.

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Fun is great and all but I'm the sort of player that cares a lot about numbers, so I'll play the best build regardless of fun factor.

Which is the sad harsh reality :<

[ruiizu]

The issue though is I can say that Holy Wrath.. its... ._.

I tried to use it man. I tried SUPER hard. Can't do it. >< its so wrong.

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Which is the sad harsh reality :<

The numbers however don't universally suggest that Fires of Justice makes for the best build. Keep in mind that with the reduced Holy Power generation of Zeal or Divine Hammer that Final Verdict decreases in value and Consecration gains in value. Execution Sentence is still pretty solid, but it loses out a bit as soon as more than one target appears (and is also holy power gated).

[Deleted]

Make it something like : call upon the light to finish/save opponents/allies and empower abilities (or make it ranged attacks) for as much casts as mana allows (hell we gotta make use of that mana bar and the light lore) when opponent/friendly target is below x% and i think we gonna be a bit happier

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

Before some of you say, not tuned, not lvl 110, not final version, git gud, ect. I wanted to let everyone know, that before I left for work, I entered a BG on the ptr. I was able to get off 5 TV's for the whole 9 minute game. I found myself keeping back and using judgment as my main form of damage, either because it's suicide to jump in or I am kited to death. At least on my DK I can grip who I want to kill in my little area of doom or my hunter who has a broken barrage and 1 shots everyone =_=

[Morally Grey Storm]

Before some of you say, not tuned, not lvl 110, not final version, git gud, ect. I wanted to let everyone know, that before I left for work, I entered a BG on the ptr. I was able to get off 5 TV's for the whole 9 minute game. I found myself keeping back and using judgment as my main form of damage, either because it's suicide to jump in or I am kited to death. At least on my DK I can grip who I want to kill in my little area of doom or my hunter who has a broken barrage and 1 shots everyone =_=

Clearly an l2p issue.
Next time hit buttanz harder.

[Ulthane]

The numbers however don't universally suggest that Fires of Justice makes for the best build. Keep in mind that with the reduced Holy Power generation of Zeal or Divine Hammer that Final Verdict decreases in value and Consecration gains in value. Execution Sentence is still pretty solid, but it loses out a bit as soon as more than one target appears (and is also holy power gated).

Well exactly, i guess the point i was going for is I want shit to push but have a slow playstyle at the same time O.o and... its actually working in the sense of: You get a slow playstyle BUT you also have fillers.

[Lumineus]

I know this is kind of off topic, but have any of you found a spec that plays similar to WoD ret?

Fury is kind of similar i guess. You build up with slash and thirst (CS/judge) then unleash Rampage (TV) while managing your Raging Blow procs (Exo). You can talent into Avatar/Bloodbath for pseudo-wings or a Whirlwind proc to emulate EDS.

Now if you want to go back to MoP Ret with ughinquistion then Outlaw Rogue is your gig. Well actually Roll the Bones is a lot more fun than Inquisition IMO, but YMMV.