[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Deleted]

After a long talk with my raid leader, I've decided to reroll to either Balance Druid or Warlock (from Shadow Priest). But I still have doubts. Could anyone on the beta answer these questions for me?

I like the look of mythic+ dungeons. I'd love to do them, either in a pug or with a guild group. How is Balance looking for these? Of course, tuning isn't finished, but the talents are there. From what I've seen Resto or Guardian seems to be a better choice, but I'm a little concerned about the artifact being on 80% power. How much of an impact on play is that? Should I be concerned, or will that be fine? I'm not a hardcore player, but not too casual either. I'm in a guild of the kind that kills heroic in 2-3 weeks and then starts progressing on mythic, for reference.

Balance isn't ideal for mythic+, but if you're willing to play resto/guardian and you're not trying to go for world rank 1, you should be fine. 80% artifact power is enough to be competetive. I'm not sure if any casters are amazing for mythic+ at the moment, from what I've seen it is dominated by melee.

[Frankzor]

What talents will you guys run for tonights test? Personally I will run FOE and WOE and Astral communion + inc, also wild charge(bomkin disengage) seems like a really good idea on High Botanist Tel'arn; cuz of the feelseeker+ collapsing star due to 15sec rather then 30sec with DP

[Hekkipekki]

And how is the current state of the stat weights?
Any information about this?

I've heard that versatility is pretty good? Or is that just bullshit.

[Deleted]

Idk how I feel about enh shamans bursting 1.4m dps on krosus single target mythic while the rest is like 300-400k. Do they just flip a coin when they decide what to buff?

[Lucrece]

Idk how I feel about enh shamans bursting 1.4m dps on krosus single target mythic while the rest is like 300-400k. Do they just flip a coin when they decide what to buff?

You really don't want to be a hybrid DPS releasing strong on the xpac. Look at balance druids in early cataclysm, amazing for the first tier then crippled for the rest. Shamans have had this happen to them before as well, and look at Windwalker monks in WoD.

The only classes that get away with being broken all expansion are pure classes, primarily mages and rogues although some times warlocks and hunters as well.

[Deleted]

You really don't want to be a hybrid DPS releasing strong on the xpac. Look at balance druids in early cataclysm, amazing for the first tier then crippled for the rest. Shamans have had this happen to them before as well, and look at Windwalker monks in WoD.

The only classes that get away with being broken all expansion are pure classes, primarily mages and rogues although some times warlocks and hunters as well.

Yeah but at the same time I've been told that I'm gonna go boomie in my guild and I do really not feel like sitting on the sidelines because there seems to be so many other specs that does more damage, feels like we have the same status as ele shammies has in WoD atm. (From what I've seen on streams from krosus)

[Lucrece]

Luckily what can be fixed is a cost reduction to Starfall and simple spell numbers tuning and balance can function just fine in raids. Whether it's fun is another matter ;p.

[Alame]

Balance isn't ideal for mythic+, but if you're willing to play resto/guardian and you're not trying to go for world rank 1, you should be fine. 80% artifact power is enough to be competetive. I'm not sure if any casters are amazing for mythic+ at the moment, from what I've seen it is dominated by melee.

This is not an acceptable answer.

Telling a player they cannot play spec X for Y content is the single biggest indication that Spec X needs attention. Not to mention that you're playing an entirely different role ffs. Telling a mage they should maybe play Frost instead of Arcane is shitty but at least they're still playing DPS.

[Kyanion]

This is not an acceptable answer.

Telling a player they cannot play spec X for Y content is the single biggest indication that Spec X needs attention. Not to mention that you're playing an entirely different role ffs. Telling a mage they should maybe play Frost instead of Arcane is shitty but at least they're still playing DPS.

No freaking kidding. I hate hearing 'well you better spec to feral, guardian or resto if you want to do X'. This isn't Vanilla where balance druids were shunned and hated. We need to be worthy of taking in mythic+ dungeons (as do some other dps casters from what I hear). It is not acceptable to say the best option is the tanking or healing route.

[Deleted]

This is not an acceptable answer.

Telling a player they cannot play spec X for Y content is the single biggest indication that Spec X needs attention. Not to mention that you're playing an entirely different role ffs. Telling a mage they should maybe play Frost instead of Arcane is shitty but at least they're still playing DPS.

They specifically asked if Resto or Guardian will perform better at 80% artifact power, which I believe is true.

You can't play a game with 33 different specs and expect every class to perform equally well at everything in the game. Will everything be viable? yes. Will everything be good for pushing world rank 1? no. Does it matter? No, because the vast majority of players wont every care about pushing for rank 1, and those who will push for rank 1 doesn't give two shits what class they play, they just pick whatever performs the best.

If you want to perform the absolute best, you pick the best class at it because the enjoyment of competing outshines that of playing a certain class. If you just want to play the game and enjoy it, it doesn't matter what class you play, literally everything works.

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No freaking kidding. I hate hearing 'well you better spec to feral, guardian or resto if you want to do X'. This isn't Vanilla where balance druids were shunned and hated. We need to be worthy of taking in mythic+ dungeons (as do some other dps casters from what I hear). It is not acceptable to say the best option is the tanking or healing route.

Something will always be "the best" or optimal, that doesn't mean you have to play it.

[Kyanion]

They specifically asked if Resto or Guardian will perform better at 80% artifact power, which I believe is true.

You can't play a game with 33 different specs and expect every class to perform equally well at everything in the game. Will everything be viable? yes. Will everything be good for pushing world rank 1? no. Does it matter? No, because the vast majority of players wont every care about pushing for rank 1, and those who will push for rank 1 doesn't give two shits what class they play, they just pick whatever performs the best.

If you want to perform the absolute best, you pick the best class at it because the enjoyment of competing outshines that of playing a certain class. If you just want to play the game and enjoy it, it doesn't matter what class you play, literally everything works.

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Something will always be "the best" or optimal, that doesn't mean you have to play it.

Then there is a problem if a spec with 80% of an artifact weapon can outperform another spec. I'm not asking for perfection but it seems like a few specs need more help to be viable. You are talking about world 1st and we're talking about the general perception of the spec as a whole. If people get denied entry into groups because balance is shit and they'd rather you offspec into your 80% artifact power resto then there is something bad wrong.

[Deleted]

Then there is a problem if a spec with 80% of an artifact weapon can outperform another spec. I'm not asking for perfection but it seems like a few specs need more help to be viable. You are talking about world 1st and we're talking about the general perception of the spec as a whole. If people get denied entry into groups because balance is shit and they'd rather you offspec into your 80% artifact power resto then there is something bad wrong.

No, there is nothing wrong with the spec. That is just how blizzard designed the game, not all classes are supposed to do similar aoe dps. Hate it all you want but chances of it changing is basically 0.

[Kyanion]

No, there is nothing wrong with the spec. That is just how blizzard designed the game, not all classes are supposed to do similar aoe dps. Hate it all you want but chances of it changing is basically 0.

Okay you can make a statement like "hate it all you want" but that is just it. I don't hate balance, I don't switch for anyone, anywhere. I'm lucky that I can play the spec I want and do nearly all of the content since Vanilla has been around. However, with that said there needs to be more feedback given. The chance of it changing is not 0 despite how much you wish it to be so.

I'd be much happier if they do some work to improve some of our shit talents starting with the level 100 talent row. I'm willing to give feedback, come up with ideas and see what we can think up as a community instead gloom and doom it like you are.

[striderZA]

I'd be much happier if they do some work to improve some of our shit talents starting with the level 100 talent row. I'm willing to give feedback, come up with ideas and see what we can think up as a community instead gloom and doom it like you are.

Everyone has been giving feedback to the devs since early alpha, chances are that core mechanics are set for release at this point.

[Kyanion]

Everyone has been giving feedback to the devs since early alpha, chances are that core mechanics are set for release at this point.

Most likely. At this point I am just resigned to the fact it will be talent tweaks if anything.

[Deleted]

Okay you can make a statement like "hate it all you want" but that is just it. I don't hate balance, I don't switch for anyone, anywhere. I'm lucky that I can play the spec I want and do nearly all of the content since Vanilla has been around. However, with that said there needs to be more feedback given. The chance of it changing is not 0 despite how much you wish it to be so.

I'd be much happier if they do some work to improve some of our shit talents starting with the level 100 talent row. I'm willing to give feedback, come up with ideas and see what we can think up as a community instead gloom and doom it like you are.

Look, it is not that I don't understand what you're saying, I really do, I simply disagree. Sometimes you just have to accept that things are a certain way, you can't change everything to your liking, especially not when it comes to something as subjective as a game. I'm not saying you should not provide feedback, if you believe that aoe should be similar across all classes, I would encourage you to keep telling them that, but you can't just ignore the case where what you want does not happen. If someone asks you if they would be better off playing Balance or Resto, the answer is not always "blizz should redesign balance so it is better". Sometimes the answer is just "resto is better".

[Kyanion]

Look, it is not that I don't understand what you're saying, I really do, I simply disagree. Sometimes you just have to accept that things are a certain way, you can't change everything to your liking, especially not when it comes to something as subjective as a game. I'm not saying you should not provide feedback, if you believe that aoe should be similar across all classes, I would encourage you to keep telling them that, but you can't just ignore the case where what you want does not happen. If someone asks you if they would be better off playing Balance or Resto, the answer is not always "blizz should redesign balance so it is better". Sometimes the answer is just "resto is better".

I never said 'aoe should be similar across all classes' though. I said they could do some work to improve some of our shit talents. They could do other things besides just giving us a flat aoe damage buff. And if you are complacent with hearing 'resto is just better' and you switch specs that is your thing, not mine and it shouldn't be a thing most of us have to do. I just don't agree with the "sometimes the answer is just 'resto is better.'" It just shouldn't be something a game this old should be dealing with.

Like I said the wrong thing to happen is someone being denied mythic+ because of the perception of the class is that it is shit. I'm not talking about top mythic+ speed runners or the best ever or any of that crap. Just look at how things trickle down, if it is known that X specs perform really poorly in mythic+ you KNOW people that think they are the best ever will start denying certain specs entry into groups. It won't affect me personally but it will hit plenty of balance druids and other specs that are underperforming in mythic.

[Deleted]

Videos from yesterday's raidtest: (I had to play resto on the last one, but it is pure single target until the last phase anyway)




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Like I said the wrong thing to happen is someone being denied mythic+ because of the perception of the class is that it is shit. I'm not talking about top mythic+ speed runners or the best ever or any of that crap. Just look at how things trickle down, if it is known that X specs perform really poorly in mythic+ you KNOW people that think they are the best ever will start denying certain specs entry into groups.

Thing is, that will always be the case for some specs. There is always a spec that is objectively worse than most other specs. Thing is, when pugging a random, chances are that the variance in dps caused by skill level vastly out matches the difference caused by gear or class. There is just no (easy) way for a group leader to tell how good a random player is at the game, so the only thing they have to go by is class and gear. If you had to pick between a class that does 100k dps, and one that does 101k dps, you would still choose the one doing 101k right?

It is an issue, I agree, but buffing balance aoe wouldn't do much to solve it. There is no easy solution to that issue, otherwise I'm sure blizzard would have already implemented some kind of "Skillscore".

I should probably mention that I think playing Balance Druid in mythic+ is perfectly fine. It just isn't optimal, because only 3 specs (at most) will ever be.

[arcanekit2]

My current main toon is Moonkin and really considering changing class come legion, to me it’s not about being ranking 1st or even being top dps in raid. The current version of the Moonkin on the Beta just feels imbalanced when levelling and earlier instances. I have played Moonkin on both Alpha and Beta and complained/suggested changes in both.

Getting rid of the balance bars is great freedom from that bar feel good. Also the new spells feel good, not too sure about New Moon etc. as takes too long to cast and AP generation could be better.

The overall problem with Astral power is that unless you have Legion end game gear the build-up of AP is too slow, but I assume if they increased the build up speed, Moonkin will easily be top DPS in raids and PVP. The good news is you will notice the difference in build-up when you get better gear. I copied my Moonkin over to Beta this weekend, its ilvl is only 739 and wow so much difference compared to ilvl 685 which made levelling bearably.

The change to Starfall is horrible but I assume required following the changes to mob tagging. So now I just moonfire everything, same result. To me a starfall pointless change, as you would not use Starfall much while levelling as Moonkin suck defensively.

So Defensively Moonkin are rubbish, heard this could be a bug, but its been there for a long while anyway more than two mobs your probably dead, most other classes I could easily manage up to 4 mobs.

Moonkin healing even with resto infinity is stupid, LOL hybrid class, can just about heal myself if being attacked by more than 2 mobs and takes you out of form. why bother with this unless the healing is worth it. Also Mana gets burn down so quick when you heal. I did not try healing with the resto infinity in raids so I may be wrong. The infinity’s just feel pointless unless you are given more of the ability to actually tank/heal.

Even with all the issues above I believe Moonkin will be mid pack dps on raid bosses and near top if patchwork type of fight. Starsurge and empowerment lunar hits are massive.

Think the issues could be easy resolved by blizzard and I am hoping they do fix AP generation or give us a full bar as default, also fix starfall as no one wants to dot and then starfall (tab dotting is not fun).

[paror]

My current main toon is Moonkin and really considering changing class come legion, to me it’s not about being ranking 1st or even being top dps in raid. The current version of the Moonkin on the Beta just feels imbalanced when levelling and earlier instances. I have played Moonkin on both Alpha and Beta and complained/suggested changes in both.

Getting rid of the balance bars is great freedom from that bar feel good. Also the new spells feel good, not too sure about New Moon etc. as takes too long to cast and AP generation could be better.

The overall problem with Astral power is that unless you have Legion end game gear the build-up of AP is too slow, but I assume if they increased the build up speed, Moonkin will easily be top DPS in raids and PVP. The good news is you will notice the difference in build-up when you get better gear. I copied my Moonkin over to Beta this weekend, its ilvl is only 739 and wow so much difference compared to ilvl 685 which made levelling bearably.

The change to Starfall is horrible but I assume required following the changes to mob tagging. So now I just moonfire everything, same result. To me a starfall pointless change, as you would not use Starfall much while levelling as Moonkin suck defensively.

So Defensively Moonkin are rubbish, heard this could be a bug, but its been there for a long while anyway more than two mobs your probably dead, most other classes I could easily manage up to 4 mobs.

Moonkin healing even with resto infinity is stupid, LOL hybrid class, can just about heal myself if being attacked by more than 2 mobs and takes you out of form. why bother with this unless the healing is worth it. Also Mana gets burn down so quick when you heal. I did not try healing with the resto infinity in raids so I may be wrong. The infinity’s just feel pointless unless you are given more of the ability to actually tank/heal.

Even with all the issues above I believe Moonkin will be mid pack dps on raid bosses and near top if patchwork type of fight. Starsurge and empowerment lunar hits are massive.

Think the issues could be easy resolved by blizzard and I am hoping they do fix AP generation or give us a full bar as default, also fix starfall as no one wants to dot and then starfall (tab dotting is not fun).

This is exactly what is wrong at the moment with moonkin. I am okay with starfall being targetable. Not so okay It has a million year ramp up.
I am ok with slow ap generation but not the spells hitting like wet noodles etc