BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Kalis]

If it helps you sleep better to argue semantics over which crime is worse when the objective is exactly the same...

The claim is that they spent the money from their national campaign fund, but that it should have come from the constituency (regional) fund and relates to accommodation costs of people travelling on a bus campaign tour, with the Tory defence being that as it was a national tour it was part of their national campaign.

Are you really going to compare that to vote rigging? Are you so blinded by hatred that you can not see a fundamental difference between falsifying votes and a discrepancy over which account money should be allocated from?

[Jessicka]

The claim is that they spent the money from their national campaign fund, but that it should have come from the constituency (regional) fund and relates to accommodation costs of people travelling on a bus campaign tour, with the Tory defence being that as it was a national tour it was part of their national campaign.

Are you really going to compare that to vote rigging? Are you so blinded by hatred that you can not see a fundamental difference between falsifying votes and a discrepancy over which account money should be allocated from?

I believe that's for the police, cps and ultimately the courts to decide.

[Heathy]

someone shared a pretty good video on facebook that i was watching for, actual non bullshit break down.

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/

unfortunately i'm not sure if there is a YT link. if there is maybe ill change the link. it looks like its a few days old i did jump back a bunch of pages but i didn't see if anyone posted it yet.

[Kalis]

I believe that's for the police, cps and ultimately the courts to decide.

Except they are not going to compare it to vote rigging, which is pretty much the most serious crime you can commit in politics. At worst they will hand out a fine and issue a warning, then clarify the procedure.

Why do you think Labour is not making a big deal out of it? If election fraud is so serious that it got the Tories into power, then Labour would be all over the story, but it didn't, so they aren't.

In comparison, vote rigging that led to a General Election win would be a huge scandal, so when someone is talking about potentially rigging the referendum vote it is pathetic to equate it to what amounts to dodgy accounting practices at worst.

[Whiskeyjack WN]

I believe that's for the police, cps and ultimately the courts to decide.

You're as bad as a politician, avoiding the actual question :P

What they have done is not worth mentioning compared to the crime that vote rigging would be.

What they have done is indeed illegal, but honestly it is vastly different from actual vote rigging, so I don't see how you can actually treat them as a similar thing.

[Vash The Stampede]

Just going to leave this here.

[Heathy]

Mein fears are that Brexit haters create a self-fulfilling prophecy of how terribad an exit would be economically as well as in other aspects. And because many of them are in power they will artificially create said situation out of spite/to make an example out of it.

the same way a good portion of brexit supporters basically just wanna stick it to Cameron. in most respects it will be less favourable, the guy in the vid I linked explains that we would have to redo all our trade agreements so. thats not going to be booming economically.

If ppl are voting based on their disdain for the PM your not voting for what you think is in the best interest of the country your basically just being an idiot. It is a shame that cameron was so arrogant about this whole thing, perhaps he doesn't realise that not everyone likes him very much, but yes your personal feelings for him shouldn't be what is driving your decision making process.

[Jessicka]

You're as bad as a politician, avoiding the actual question :P

What they have done is not worth mentioning compared to the crime that vote rigging would be.

What they have done is indeed illegal, but honestly it is vastly different from actual vote rigging, so I don't see how you can actually treat them as a similar thing.

As I understand there are enough constituencies whereby if this were proven to have happened, and resulted in the Conservatives winning a parliamentary majority off the back of it; is it really somehow "better"? Even though the end result is effectively the same?

[Deleted]

someone shared a pretty good video on facebook that i was watching for, actual non bullshit break down.

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/

unfortunately i'm not sure if there is a YT link. if there is maybe ill change the link. it looks like its a few days old i did jump back a bunch of pages but i didn't see if anyone posted it yet.

Excellent video, thanks! That professor actually has some information (from the middle onwards) that even economics and law professionals may not know.

[dragonvalor]

Just going to leave this here.

Wow that guy is annoying, no wonder he failed at comedy in the UK

[Kalis]

As I understand there are enough constituencies whereby if this were proven to have happened, and resulted in the Conservatives winning a parliamentary majority off the back of it; is it really somehow "better"? Even though the end result is effectively the same?

To claim that the Conservative Party won a majority due to this is unadulterated bullshit, you do not win a Parliamentary seat because the accommodation campaigners stayed in was a hotel and not a cheap B&B.

[Jessicka]

To claim that the Conservative Party won a majority due to this is unadulterated bullshit, you do not win a Parliamentary seat because the accommodation campaigners stayed in was a hotel and not a cheap B&B.

The net result is more spent on campaigning, or are you dismissing the value of campaigning?

[Kalis]

The net result is more spent on campaigning, or are you dismissing the value of campaigning?

You are either being incredibly disingenuous, or you have no idea what the issue is, perhaps both.

The campaign bus was paid for by the national budget - this is not an issue.

The people on the bus stayed in hotels and those were allocated to the national budget, but some have said they should be on the local budgets - this is the issue.

If those people had stayed at cheaper hotels, then there would be no issue at all, so explain in great detail how the level of hotel accommodation used influences an election result. Who votes for someone because their campaigners stayed at a Travel Lodge?

[Terracresta]

The EU is a nice scapegoat for politicians in most likely all european countries even though the EU politicians belong to the same friggin parties. Our goverments are fucked up even without the EU but many people seem blind to this fact. Nice little puppets for the people in power.
Just wonder who these politicians are going to blame in the future in case the "Brexit" really happens. Of cause it won't be their fault if it doesn't work out like they promised.

[Jessicka]

You are either being incredibly disingenuous, or you have no idea what the issue is, perhaps both.

The campaign bus was paid for by the national budget - this is not an issue.

The people on the bus stayed in hotels and those were allocated to the national budget, but some have said they should be on the local budgets - this is the issue.

If those people had stayed at cheaper hotels, then there would be no issue at all, so explain in great detail how the level of hotel accommodation used influences an election result. Who votes for someone because their campaigners stayed at a Travel Lodge?

If a party is able to spend extra money from local funds on actual campaigning because accommodation costs are illegally being used from elsewhere, then there's a problem. It's nothing to do with the costs but the use of allocated funds. End result, they were able to spend more than other parties by doing this in those key areas.

Nothing whatsoever to do with using cheaper hotels.

[Kallisto]

The net result is more spent on campaigning, or are you dismissing the value of campaigning?

No he is rightfully doubting that they had any effect on the national election results. Which is true they had no effect at all.

The reason the conservatives won was because the Lib Dems stayed home instead of holding their nose and voting Labour to keep the conservatives below the freshhold of having a majority within parliament. Along with a higher than normal conservative turnout and a lower than normal labour turnout and a really high but too spread out UKIP vote. Hell the bookies predicted this when everyone else was predicting hung parliament.

[Kalis]

If a party is able to spend extra money from local funds on actual campaigning because accommodation costs are illegally being used from elsewhere, then there's a problem. It's nothing to do with the costs but the use of allocated funds. End result, they were able to spend more than other parties by doing this in those key areas.

Nothing whatsoever to do with using cheaper hotels.

Had they stayed in cheaper hotels, which would have been the case if the local parties had been told they were liable, then they would almost all have made their budgets - all but four were sub £2,250 and some did not go beyond their budget regardless of where the money is allocated.

So it is literally a case of not using cheaper hotels, so once again, explain in great detail how the level of hotel accommodation used influences an election result.

If you can not answer that, then you have no case to claim it "resulted in the Conservatives winning a parliamentary majority off the back of it".

I get that you have this irrational hatred of everything Tory, but you equating vote rigging with what the Tories are alleged to have done is beyond irrational and into retarded.

[Slant]

Tbh a lot of Brexiter's could do with watching this video as this guy gives more logical information than any of the Brexit campaigners will ever think about giving.

Showed this to my dad who was firmly believing leaving would stop immigration, he soon changed his tune as this guy put things in words he could understand and showed proof with what he was talking about, Thanks Slant he's changed his mind now too.

Well then, my mission is accomplished. I changed a mind somewhere in the world, at least SOMEONE is not being a total idiot and listens.

But you know the really, utterly and truly sad aspect of this? It needs an actual fucking comedian to explain politics so a sensible decision can be made. *sigh*

[Jessicka]

I didn't make that claim, I said it was still all under investigation, which it is. I said if that is what the investigation determines, then it is no different.

[Kalis]

I didn't make that claim, I said it was still all under investigation, which it is. I said if that is what the investigation determines, then it is no different.

The investigation is not going to determine that, as the investigation is into a breach of spending regulations.

Nobody in their right mind would compare a technical breach to tampering with ballots, it is like equating a flasher with a violent rapist because they both come under sexual offences.