[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Chaosinciter]

Hope Blizz is trolling with Holy Wrath talent. Else am speechless

Nope, they've even defended it saying "it's a fun talent" even though it's complete and absolute shit which people have been telling them since day 1 of reveal.

[ruiizu]

Decided to do a character copy and try out the starting scenario on beta. Ulthane's build actually does pretty well (Zeal, Consecration, Divine Hammer), especially with 16% haste. However, I'm finding that Consecration has the same old problem now that the glyph is gone: it sucks for fast paced combat because you can't take it with you. However, with that setup, there's basically little if any downtime in the rotation at all. With 16% haste the effective uptime on Judgment is basically "whenever you have Holy Power, it's basically on the target," so the gap is negligible (in essence you can just use Judgment on CD and it doesn't really make a big difference from what I can tell).

I was surprised that it actually worked as well as it did. I do miss the burst of Execution Sentence and Divine Hammer feels weirder than Blade of Justice because it's not just a single 'BAM' hit, but it's still very effective, at least in PvE. In PvP the build would be totally useless though.

[Project 501D13R]

anyone have a general picture of how we should develop our artifact traits, from what I've read we go straight for the ashes to ashes talent, then after that go for echo of the highlord, do we grab might of the templar after we get echo or before it? Also, do we grab wrath of the ashbringer and highlord's judgement before going through deflection to get echo?

[Chaosinciter]

anyone have a general picture of how we should develop our artifact traits, from what I've read we go straight for the ashes to ashes talent, then after that go for echo of the highlord, do we grab might of the templar after we get echo or before it? Also, do we grab wrath of the ashbringer and highlord's judgement before going through deflection to get echo?

The way i have it figured is that you'll go straight for AtA then double back and go towards Divine Tempest via Deliver the Justice route, then you grab Echo so it'll look like this:

Blade of Light > Righteous Blade > Unbreakable Will > Protector of the Ashen Blade > Ashes to Ashes > Deliver the Justice > Sharpened Edge > Wrath of the Ashbringer > Highlord's Judgment > Embrace the Light > Divine Tempest > Deflection > Echo of the Highlord > Might of the Templar > Healing Storm > Endless Resolve.

Least this is what im going to do.

[Deleted]

Ok now that the 4 gods of the empyrean blessed me with access to the beta realms I have to say ret feel very under powered. "just a number thing" some of you heretics would say but I think it´s rather a mechanical thing. before any kind of dmg starts I´m already 10 seconds into tickling the mob before I can start thinking about getting any dmg done. While I struggle to down 2 mobs the hunter right next to me is finishing of his 4 or 5 mobs before taking pity on me and kills the mobs off for me (might be because he wants to skin my mobs sometime this century). The only time it feels good to be a ret is when you stun something and back to back 2 or more JVs.
Well that´s my leveling experience with a premade character leveled to 105 so far. Interpret in it what ever you like in it may it be l2p or stop fondling your balls while playing. Personal result leveling is bloody crap.

But I come before you with a humble question as well. When did you unlock ashes to ashes? I have the feeling that it won´t be any time soon for me. If I take a look at how slow I am to acquire Artifact Power I feel like it wont be until 110 before I finally get to it (4 traits still missing).
And yes i quest though the quest hubs until the end. Only thing I havn´t done yet was a dungeon since no invite coming up for hours.

[Celebhil]

I'll just reiterate a few things based on how ret is playing the ptr

the concept of "judging, then wrecking the enemy" I like, i dont think a ding ding sound effect and a boomerang hammer aesthetically fits it; the hammer group from the former mass judgement/ hammer of justice would work better.

rotation is ok, but only with certain talent picks. I find that the hp generation to 5 doesn't always line up with when the judgement cd refreshes
aoe is "ok", but only with certain talent picks

tuning #'s is off; divine storm just doesnt do enough aoe damage, the damage im doing even if im racking 3+ TVs in the window doesnt seem to be enough. crusader strike and blade of justice hit like a wet noodle relatively.

one possible solution is look to the mechanics of blessing of might to either increase the proc chance and/or % damage (even if its some sort of passive self effect so might isnt as good on other players), so we can more reliably get them to proc off our finishers or have it operate in a similar manner to seal of command (ppm, high %weapon damage as holy), so we have an additional element of hard hitting dps in between judgement windows.

[Deleted]

Random thought:

Why not just reduce the HP cost of all HP spenders by 1? To strong for baseline but as a golden trait it would give A2A a run for its money. Could be the new and actually good EotHL.

[Deleted]

Random thought:

Why not just reduce the HP cost of all HP spenders by 1? To strong for baseline but as a golden trait it would give A2A a run for its money. Could be the new and actually good EotHL.

On that note...There is something that has bothered me. It's really frustrating when blade comes off CD but you have 4HP. I would rather it generated 1HP and had a CD resetting proc to it.

Spenders beeing 2HP would fasten the gameplay. Thays always good in my book.

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@Teleros, this was when tFoJ was changed to reduce CS's CD by 1.5 seconds which was long after BoW was changed to how it is now.

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haste does not make either zeal or tFoJ "scale" any harder than the other. both are evenly effected by haste from a CD to GCD ratio so downtime is not decreased with more haste until you get past the .75 GCD cap. the only thing that makes ret "Scale" with haste is the judgment window since it is a debuff that is static regardless of haste but the cooldown can be reduced to match or surpass the duration of the debuff. This is where downtime is effected with haste and ret. not in ability usage, but in judgment windows.

I'm not sure what you are saying there is true Reg. Haste DOES reduce the downtime.

Take a look at Teleros table here for example:

Haste % CD Reduction J / BoJ CS / Zeal TFOJ GCD
0% 0% 12 secs 4.5 secs 3.0 secs 1.5 secs
10% 9.1% 10.91 4.91 2.73 1.36
25% 20% 9.6 3.6 2.4 1.2
33% 25% 9.0 3.38 2.25 1.13
50% 33.3% 8.0 3.0 2.0 1.0
66.6% 40% 7.2 2.7 1.8 1.0 (cap)
100% 50% 6.0 2.25 1.5 1.0 (cap)


If you do zeal at 0% haste twice (because of charges), you have to wait 1.5 seconds for it to become available again. If you do zeal twice at 50% haste, you only need to wait 1 second until it comes off cooldown. It's always just one global, but the duration of the global is reduced, and thus the downtime.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Random thought:

Why not just reduce the HP cost of all HP spenders by 1? To strong for baseline but as a golden trait it would give A2A a run for its money. Could be the new and actually good EotHL.

random thought more: why Ret generators have cd when no other combopoint-based class has such a retarded ramification?

I'm profusely fancying that sweet interaction between Ret generators and DK talent which increases time required for CDs to come off.

How about BoJ with a 18 sec cd huh? Sounds like fun

[ruiizu]

random thought more: why Ret generators have cd when no other combopoint-based class has such a retarded ramification?

I'm profusely fancying that sweet interaction between Ret generators and DK talent which increases time required for CDs to come off.

How about BoJ with a 18 sec cd huh? Sounds like fun

I was the proponent of an opposite system: Judgment costs Holy Power, and Templar's Verdict has no CD but requires Judgment to have been used to become active. Ultimately means there's a single gating: Judgment, rather than the current two fold gate.

[Deleted]

random thought more: why Ret generators have cd when no other combopoint-based class has such a retarded ramification?

cuz skill so much and WOtlk launch

I'm profusely fancying that sweet interaction between Ret generators and DK talent which increases time required for CDs to come off.

How about BoJ with a 18 sec cd huh? Sounds like fun

sounds like balance to me

[Reghame]

Random thought:

Why not just reduce the HP cost of all HP spenders by 1? To strong for baseline but as a golden trait it would give A2A a run for its money. Could be the new and actually good EotHL.

why not just remove the cost then? and not ad a CD to it either? why not just make every ability hammer of wrath and TV............... oh wait

lets also get into beta, test it for a couple of minutes if not an hour then complain that it sucks because im not max level and clearly know what im talking about.

sounds like a good idea.

[Morally Grey Storm]

why not just remove the cost then? and not ad a CD to it either? why not just make every ability hammer of wrath and TV............... oh wait

lets also get into beta, test it for a couple of minutes if not an hour then complain that it sucks because im not max level and clearly know what im talking about.

sounds like a good idea.

Oh no someone's trying to be creative or incite a discussion, better hurry up and try to come up with snarky rebuttal and fail

[Deleted]

why not just remove the cost then? and not ad a CD to it either? why not just make every ability hammer of wrath and TV............... oh wait

lets also get into beta, test it for a couple of minutes if not an hour then complain that it sucks because im not max level and clearly know what im talking about.

sounds like a good idea.

first of thank you very much for your well thought input reg. My reasoning is based on the disparity between building and spending HP which is a point many players made. As Nemmar so accurately summarized it would speed up the cycle while at the same time increasing our dmg which is compared to other premade characters underwhelming (yes I looked at the mentioned hunter in my example and there was no HFC gear on him).
Also it wouldn´t require that much of a code change and, taking concerns regarding PVP in consideration, increase the comparative costs of JV.

My concerns were introduced as a personal opinion quiet clearly. I at no point complained. I merely stated my personal experience SO FAR.
I´m still doubtful that 110 and more traits in AB will pull us on eye level with the other speccs since they also receive dmg increases when leveling up their artifacts.

Still my politely asked question remains unanswered. I would appreciate sone kind of educated answer.

@Storm the Sorrow thank you for being snarky towards reg. I would like to as well but I noticed that no one would grace me with an answer if I let my inner demons take over.

[Lumineus]

I think having it refund one might be more balanced. Overall there wouldn't be a difference in holy power gained but it would mean you couldn't fire off three TVs in a row with just a FoJ proc (nvm DP), which might be a sticking point for PvP victims.

[ruiizu]

Don't expect much useful beta talk right now. The servers are about as reliable as the housing market in 2008 right now and it's nigh impossible to really do anything. Wouldn't be surprised if their fix was "welp, beta over, piss off."

[Wrecktangle]

Quick question, with the new change to Judgment being ~90% uptime why do we even have it again?

I know it's BEYOND stupid to propose new ideas at this point, but I enjoy sharing them and I hate leaving things sitting idle in my head.

What if we kept Holy Power, but instead of using it as a stale combo point system we revised it to grant a buff increasing our damage and augmenting our abilities when maxed out?

Something like this:

Mastery: Zealotry - Upon reaching 5 Holy Power the Retribution Paladin radiates unbounding Light granting Zealotry for the next 10 seconds. During this time you do not gain or consume Holy Power. After 10s all 5 Holy Power are consumed.

Zealotry - Deals an additional 40% damage (with Mastery from typical gear) on all attacks as Holy damage. In addition while under the effect of Zealotry the following attacks are augmented:

Crusader Strike - Has its chance to critically strike increased by 30% and instantly strikes a second time dealing 50% of its regular damage.

Judgment - Becomes a conal AOE and critically strikes for 300% damage.

Blade of Wrath - Range increased to 30yds and deals 50% additional damage.

etc. etc. Again just showing examples of what empowered abilities could be like. There could definitely be more. Ideally I imagine uptime on mastery to be approximately 50%. I want our abilities to be very powerful in Zealotry, but also strong outside of it. In PVP this opens counterplay opportunities similar to wings. If a Paladin activated Zealotry you know he has 10s to really wreck you, so avoid/cc them. Similar to wings in the sense that you could combo them to deal maximum damage, but then you'd leave yourself wide open with no kill potential for a while or separate them in hopes of having more uptime on securing a kill.

---

To supplement this system we'd need to get rid of the idea where spenders cost 3 Holy Power. I imagine we go back to a WotLK styled rotation where every ability deals respectable damage (fixing the awful generator = 0 damage, finisher = all damage), and some gain 1 Holy Power, and others would Cost 1 Holy Power. This would give freedom to stall the Zealotry buff if a big mechanic was coming up, or if a phase change invulnerable type of situation occurred.

I feel this is a great compromise to the whole most people like WotLK, and Blizzard wants us to use Holy Power conundrum.

Just killing time at work.

[Biral Sunherald]

Random thought:

Why not just reduce the HP cost of all HP spenders by 1? To strong for baseline but as a golden trait it would give A2A a run for its money. Could be the new and actually good EotHL.

That ventures into the territory of Fury Warriors and their Enrage window moderating their Raging Blow use. I mean, we'd be able to actively gate our burst - with 5HP being a 5-in-a-row TV, not accounting for Divine Purpose - in combat, but it would be a very monotonous rotation, I'd think. Build to 5, Judge, TV, TV, TV, TV, TV, statistically a proc, build to 5 again and repeat.

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Quick question, with the new change to Judgment being ~90% uptime why do we even have it again?

I know it's BEYOND stupid to propose new ideas at this point, but I enjoy sharing them and I hate leaving things sitting idle in my head.

What if we kept Holy Power, but instead of using it as a stale combo point system we revised it to grant a buff increasing our damage and augmenting our abilities when maxed out?

Something like this:

Mastery: Zealotry - Upon reaching 5 Holy Power the Retribution Paladin radiates unbounding Light granting Zealotry for the next 10 seconds. During this time you do not gain or consume Holy Power. After 10s all 5 Holy Power are consumed.

Zealotry - Deals an additional 40% damage (with Mastery from typical gear) on all attacks as Holy damage. In addition while under the effect of Zealotry the following attacks are augmented:

Crusader Strike - Has its chance to critically strike increased by 30% and instantly strikes a second time dealing 50% of its regular damage.

Judgment - Becomes a conal AOE and critically strikes for 300% damage.

Blade of Wrath - Range increased to 30yds and deals 50% additional damage.

etc. etc. Again just showing examples of what empowered abilities could be like. There could definitely be more. Ideally I imagine uptime on mastery to be approximately 50%. I want our abilities to be very powerful in Zealotry, but also strong outside of it. In PVP this opens counterplay opportunities similar to wings. If a Paladin activated Zealotry you know he has 10s to really wreck you, so avoid/cc them. Similar to wings in the sense that you could combo them to deal maximum damage, but then you'd leave yourself wide open with no kill potential for a while or separate them in hopes of having more uptime on securing a kill.

---

To supplement this system we'd need to get rid of the idea where spenders cost 3 Holy Power. I imagine we go back to a WotLK styled rotation where every ability deals respectable damage (fixing the awful generator = 0 damage, finisher = all damage), and some gain 1 Holy Power, and others would Cost 1 Holy Power. This would give freedom to stall the Zealotry buff if a big mechanic was coming up, or if a phase change invulnerable type of situation occurred.

I feel this is a great compromise to the whole most people like WotLK, and Blizzard wants us to use Holy Power conundrum.

Just killing time at work.

I don't think Zealotry would quite fit the theme, honestly. We're Retribution Paladins, delivering Justice and Vengeance 24/7 at the low, low price of our gathered Holy Power. If we were filled with Righteousness everytime we obtained 5 HP, we'd be similar to Shadow Priests and their Insanity meter, only we'd have control over how insane/holy we were at any given time. Instead of being forced into the window and going boom shakalaka, we're given the odd responsibility of not becoming too holy, just in case we need to go ultra-holy in five seconds.

Also, the changes to the three skills you recommended already exist in some fashion in the class; which is neither good nor bad, just might be seen as unnecessary if the other skills remain as is. Crusader Strike's crit bonus exists in our Artifact Traits, Judgment's conal attack already exists as Wake of Ashes, and Blade of Wrath's range increase and higher damage already exists in Judgment.

I just think the empowered abilities might be too different to adjust to. Blade of Justice/Wrath is always used presently as a mid-range attack, so the extra yardage might not be easily used (or remembered to be used), especially since Zealotry would only trigger upon reaching max HP (a la Shadow Priests) and the only way to generate HP is via melee attacks or BoJ/W, which would then be on cooldown for the full duration of Zealotry if it were used as the trigger for it.

Also, if the duration of Zealotry were just 10s, that'd really encourage sticking to the target and spamming TV or DS over using any of the newly modified abilities.

Great ideas, but I think it'd be a little too much to handle with our current kit.

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I think having it refund one might be more balanced. Overall there wouldn't be a difference in holy power gained but it would mean you couldn't fire off three TVs in a row with just a FoJ proc (nvm DP), which might be a sticking point for PvP victims.

SWTOR does this with their Marauder; some attacks refund 1 Rage (out of a 12 max). The Marauder also has a damage window, but it's far more restrictive than Legion beta's atm. For Maras, they use the window trigger, then a channeled melee ability and - with enough Alacrity (#BiowareHaste) - an execute or other high-damage and instant ability. Then their rotation goes on as if nothing happened, utilizing line attacks, executes, and resource build/consume attacks as needed. Neither the window trigger nor the primary ability used in-window cost or generate Rage, so it's just a separate system tacked on.

I think we could learn a lot about design from analyzing other MMO classes similar to our new damage window Ret.

RIFT and SWTOR are the only two that come to mind, however, as I've played little of Wildstar or other hotkey MMOs.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

first of thank you very much for your well thought input reg. My reasoning is based on the disparity between building and spending HP which is a point many players made. As Nemmar so accurately summarized it would speed up the cycle while at the same time increasing our dmg which is compared to other premade characters underwhelming (yes I looked at the mentioned hunter in my example and there was no HFC gear on him).
Also it wouldn´t require that much of a code change and, taking concerns regarding PVP in consideration, increase the comparative costs of JV.

My concerns were introduced as a personal opinion quiet clearly. I at no point complained. I merely stated my personal experience SO FAR.
I´m still doubtful that 110 and more traits in AB will pull us on eye level with the other speccs since they also receive dmg increases when leveling up their artifacts.

Still my politely asked question remains unanswered. I would appreciate sone kind of educated answer.

@Storm the Sorrow thank you for being snarky towards reg. I would like to as well but I noticed that no one would grace me with an answer if I let my inner demons take over.

We might be be more powerful damage wise. Our rotation is still not very good like at all. Our mobility is still bad. At this point, I've said what I want or suggested so much it's getting tedious. Also Reg tone down the snark. At least Cpt and Storm have a reason to be snarky.


EVERYTHING IS PERFECT GUYZ1111111111111111 SO PERFECT BEST DPS EVER. GLADIATOR STATUS1111111111111111


/snarkend

[ruiizu]

We might be be more powerful damage wise. Our rotation is still not very good like at all. Our mobility is still bad. At this point, I've said what I want or suggested so much it's getting tedious. Also Reg tone down the snark. At least Cpt and Storm have a reason to be snarky.


EVERYTHING IS PERFECT GUYZ1111111111111111 SO PERFECT BEST DPS EVER. GLADIATOR STATUS1111111111111111


/snarkend

The only problem I'm really encountering in Beta (aside of not being able to stay logged in) is having absolutely nothing I can do while trying to get from A to B. With no charge or such, but also no range attacks, I'm literally just walking forward and that's the most I've got.

I seriously think they need some "other" ability(ies) to exist. I think it would be interesting if we could "charge" Holy Power while moving even if we can't attack a target (like I don't know, we say some Holy words, an incantation, or something?) If we can't actively attack from afar or run fast, it just seems pretty bad to not have anything to do at all. No instant heals, no buffs to throw out, no way to charge up our power...just W.