Wow Legion : PvP Everyone is Everyone

[Allenseiei]

No you don't know how to do math. Stat allocations for item levels grow exponentially, not linearly. Each 1 unit increase in item level is 1% more power or .01% in pvp. This is why we keep having to have stat squishes. 100 ilevels is not 1% x 10 its (1+.001)^100 - 1 or 10.5115697720767%.

So you are trying to argue that an increase in 10.5% increase in power from someone 795 to 895 makes pvp more gear dependent?

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Haha, 6% less stats in today's terms means you are missing 66% of your conquest gear. If you think that is "so minimal" you are completely clueless and never done any pvp whatsoever.

I'm saying 6% in legions terms of stats which are more lineal than WoD's. You are the one who's completely clueless. 6% of legions stats, which equal to 60 ilvl difference. Even if you just casualy do world quests, it will get you at least 835 ilvl by the time the season comes out. If you don't upgrade your gear at all, it will go towards a 60 ilvl difference at the end of the tier, where people will start averaging out 895 gear in mythic.

[Jotaux]

So you are trying to argue that an increase in 10.5% increase in power from someone 795 to 895 makes pvp more gear dependent?

Much more gear dependent than having everyone in full conquest because its just so easy to get. Since math is not your strong suit 10.5%>0% means that 10.5% is greater than 0%. The alligator opens up to the bigger number.

[Allenseiei]

Much more gear dependent than having everyone in full conquest because its just so easy to get. Since math is not your strong suit 10.5%>0% means that 10.5% is greater than 0%. The alligator opens up to the bigger number.

10.5% is without any lvl 110 gear. How much is the power difference from a 640 ilvl player to a 710 ilvl in WoD?

[Jotaux]

10.5% is without any lvl 110 gear. How much is the power difference from a 640 ilvl player to a 710 ilvl in WoD?

10.5% you get scaled up to 700 ilvl.

edit: and you won't be months behind on pvp talents.

[Allenseiei]

10.5% you get scaled up to 700 ilvl.

Then why is it more gear reliant?

Do they give you pvp trinkets? PvP sets? No. In legion all bonuses are disabled.

Oh and I realized, players with 640 get upgraded to 700 ilvl. Player with 710 get scaled to 740 gear. Now tell me again, How much power difference from a 640 ilvl player to a 710 ilvl in WoD was again?


Edit: We are talking about gear, pvp talents is another thing entirely which do favor the one who plays more.

[Livevil]

I'm saying 6% in legions terms of stats which are more lineal than WoD's. You are the one who's completely clueless.

Rofl, no it's not. It is even steeper. The difference between dungeon hc gear and only the 1st tier is 80ilvls. By the time we reach the third legion tier that difference is gonna be massive. Keep up the clueless posts.

[Jotaux]

Then why is it more gear reliant?

Because you have more accessible options to close the gap. Even more so as the season goes on. I made another shaman because I was bored and did some 2s as enhance, a spec I've rarely played. Took me an evening to get full conquest gear. I could have just bought the tokens on the ah but for a throwaway toon why bother.

In legion you are going to have to PVE hard to keep up.

[Allenseiei]

Rofl, no it's not. It is even steeper. The difference between dungeon hc gear and only the 1st tier is 80ilvls. By the time we reach the third legion tier that difference is gonna be massive. Keep up the clueless posts.

What are you even talking on about?

Hc dungeon gear is 825 ilvl. Legendaries, which are higher than mythic, are 895 ilvl (mythic isn't final but as it is now it will be 885). Get your information straight please or stop talking.
Blizzard already said that the difference in 100 ilvls in legion equals the 10 ilvl difference in WoD. If you deny this then you are simply saying "Blizzard's data is wrong and mine is right".
Blizzard is know for it's catchup mechanics, why are you talking about the last tier when the game hasn't even released? I'm 100% sure they will increase the ilvl from cache's in pvp as well as introducing high amounts of other catchup mechanics.

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Because you have more accessible options to close the gap. Even more so as the season goes on. I made another shaman because I was bored and did some 2s as enhance, a spec I've rarely played. Took me an evening to get full conquest gear. I could have just bought the tokens on the ah but for a throwaway toon why bother.

In legion you are going to have to PVE hard to keep up.

Just in case you didnt re read my post after the edits: "Oh and I realized, players with 640 get upgraded to 700 ilvl. Player with 710 get scaled to 740 gear. Now tell me again, How much power difference from a 640 ilvl player to a 710 ilvl in WoD was again?"

Unless you are spamming mythic dungeons, you get more loot options in pvp, which is why Mythic raiders are being forced to go pvping to get gear quicker.

[Jotaux]

Just in case you didnt re read my post after the edits: "Oh and I realized, players with 640 get upgraded to 700 ilvl. Player with 710 get scaled to 740 gear. Now tell me again, How much power difference from a 640 ilvl player to a 710 ilvl in WoD was again?"

Unless you are spamming mythic dungeons, you get more loot options in pvp, which is why Mythic raiders are being forced to go pvping to get gear quicker.

You'll be at 740 pvp gear in a couple hours on live so its moot. A mythic raider will probably be spamming mythic dungeons, I know I will be the first week.

[Livevil]

What are you even talking on about?

Hc dungeon gear is 825 ilvl. Legendaries, which are higher than mythic, are 895 ilvl (mythic isn't final but as it is now it will be 885). Get your information straight please or stop talking.
Blizzard is know for it's catchup mechanics, why are you talking about the last tier when the game hasn't even released? I'm 100% sure they will increase the ilvl from cache's in pvp.

The first tier of legion is Nighthold, which awards tier sets @ 905ilvl baseline.

http://legion.wowhead.com/dressing-r...Q8xl8DOc8sl87o

Legion has 3 tiers. Even at the second tier of Legion that "so minimal" 6% stat difference will be huge compared to wod. Which circles back to your first clueless post stating that a "minimal 6% stat difference in legion will be more linear", rendering it completely wrong.

[Allenseiei]

You'll be at 740 pvp gear in a couple hours on live so its moot. A mythic raider will probably be spamming mythic dungeons, I know I will be the first week.

You get that gear in the couple of hours at the end of a season when your character has a lot of conquest cap stacked for not playing or you are simply buying the conquest tokens.

So now you are running away from "power differences" because you lost the arguments, and run to "Gear accessibility and rate of acquirement"?

You should be crying about how you can't go from 90% to 100% in an instant, not because of power gaps.

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The first tier of legion is Nighthold, which awards tier sets @ 905ilvl baseline.

http://legion.wowhead.com/dressing-r...Q8xl8DOc8sl87o

Legion has 3 tiers. Even at the second tier of Legion that "so minimal" 6% stat difference will be huge compared to wod. Which circles back to your first clueless post stating that a "minimal 6% stat difference in legion will be more linear", rendering it completely wrong.

Running on dated and unconfirmed information are you? Current beta has legendaries at 895 and mythic raid testing scaling to 875-885 ilvl.

6% power difference is a 60 ilvl difference. People who play at similar levels will hardly have 10 ilvl difference, which is 1%.

[Jotaux]

You get that gear in the couple of hours at the end of a season when your character has a lot of conquest cap stacked for not playing or you are simply buying the conquest tokens.

So now you are running away from "power differences" because you lost the arguments, and run to "Gear accessibility and rate of acquirement"?

You should be crying about how you can't go from 90% to 100% in an instant, not because of power gaps.

I don't know what you are talking about, you lost so soundly here its embarrassing. Gear accessibility and rate of acquirement are important when determining how much of a factor gear is. If you can never catch up it will always be a factor, when you can catch up in 2 hours its a factor for 2 hours and then its meaningless. If you are talking about the beginning of a season then its a slight factor, but you can get full honor gear right away and then be only slightly behind on conquest gear if you are not a top tier pvper or carried but you will at most be 1-2 pieces behind. So are you talking about the start of the season where by my rough calculations you would be about 2% behind or the end of the season where the gap is 0%?

Just curious, how much do you actually pvp?

[Livevil]

Running on dated and unconfirmed information are you? Current beta has legendaries at 895 and mythic raid testing scaling to 875-885 ilvl.

Tell you what, since all you do is downplay facts and use the same old "game's still in beta - info is outdated and subject to change", prove me that you got at least 3-4 pvp geared characters that you've played on at some point in wod so i know that at least you've done some pvp, and ill take your word for the rest.

[Allenseiei]

I don't know what you are talking about, you lost so soundly here its embarrassing. Gear accessibility and rate of acquirement are important when determining how much of a factor gear is.

Higher rating -> higher ilvl gains from loot.

If you just rerolled/started you start from a lower power difference than the higher rated players. The higher rating you get, the faster you get loot of high item level. If you are skilled and have good partners, you can equip your character quite quickly because there's no cap in how much gear you get.
The acquisition rate is directly proportional to the rating you have, like it has always been to some degree and blizzard is going back to that.

Let me put it simple:

You play arena, you win -> chance to loot. The higher rating you have, the better loot you get. The only thing that will make it "harder" to get loot is the fact that it's RNG based. The rate at which you get loot is quite high. However, not all of it is useful.

. So are you talking about the start of the season where by my rough calculations you would be about 2% behind or the end of the season where the gap is 0%?

At the start of the season, the differences will be at most 20~ ilvl from the more casual to the more hardcore. You can get 835 extremely quickly and people who go hardcore get around 855~ in quite a few weeks if they have good luck in drops. So worst case scenario, if you even cared to do something at the start of legion, you will start with a 2%~ power increase.
I think your question is if you can catch up at the end of a season right?
If you are a top tier player and you compete vs players of 2500+ (mythic gear quality pvp gear) you will start with the 10.5% power disadvantage and slowly reduce it. The faster you get to high rating with that new character, the faster you will reduce the power gap since you are getting higher ilvl gear. How long will it take? That depends on the RNG loot drops (which I'm not a fan of).

The current system is simply:

People who have 1700 rating (for example) will play vs people of similar rating. Those people will have similar ilvl (close to 10 ilvl difference at most, which is 1%). The higher rating they go, they will recieve better gear, reducing the gap.

A 2500+ rated player that rerolls, will jump rating really quick so the ilvl of the rewards will jump really quick too. RNG makes more unreliable than before, but it's still quite fast. So fast that mythic players are somewhat forced to pvp.

Just curious, how much do you actually pvp?

In WoD I played first season just to get the 2200 rating set with my warrior. After that, my partners got discouraged by the outperforming combat rogues and turbo cleaves, so I stopped playing after getting the conquest set the next seasons and focused on mythic raiding.

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Tell you what, since all you do is downplay facts and use the same old "game's still in beta - info is outdated and subject to change", prove me that you got at least 3-4 pvp geared characters that you've played on at some point in wod so i know that at least you've done some pvp, and ill take your word for the rest.

So, since when is showing off achievements validate information that has nothing to with the discussion?

Besides, how can you even "take word" just from pasting armory stats that anyone can just look up and make up?

This is not "game's still in beta" shit, this is actual testing that's being done just yesterday, where we were scaled to 880 for one boss and 885 for the other (which is one of the last bosses). There's tons of current sources that at least tell you the ilvl of legendaries, which were confirmed as the highest ilvl items in game, being capped at 895.

[Jotaux]

Higher rating -> higher ilvl gains from loot.

If you just rerolled/started you start from a lower power difference than the higher rated players. The higher rating you get, the faster you get loot of high item level. If you are skilled and have good partners, you can equip your character quite quickly because there's no cap in how much gear you get.
The acquisition rate is directly proportional to the rating you have, like it has always been to some degree and blizzard is going back to that.

Which makes gear more of a factor in legion than in WoD since you will be at a disadvantage for a longer period of time.

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So, since when is showing off achievements validate information that has nothing to with the discussion?

Besides, how can you even "take word" just from pasting armory stats that anyone can just look up and make up?

This is not "game's still in beta" shit, this is actual testing that's being done just yesterday, where we were scaled to 880 for one boss and 885 for the other (which is one of the last bosses). There's tons of current sources that at least tell you the ilvl of legendaries, which were confirmed as the highest ilvl items in game, being capped at 895.

Well you lack basic understanding of game mechanics like item levels so they are just trying to establish your credentials. Since the math isn't there the next step would be your experience.

[Alydael]

The gear treadmill makes sense for pve, but not really for pvp. When I beat (or lose to someone) in pvp, I want skill to be the reason- not gear. For me, it is no fun to beat someone because I had better gear, it diminishes pvp as a whole. Pvp should be a competition of skill between players, not determined by who collected (or grinded out) better gear.

I play other mmo's where gear does not factor into pvp and I find the pvp in those games to be (mostly) more competitive and exciting than WOW. I am hoping that will change in Legion with the new system.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

The problem is that you are no one man, your work gives nothing you will not be stronger or anything... Imagine raiding, get more items for nothing?

Yeah, that is what real PvP is to me. Skill and prestige are the only important parts of it.

[TenthDoctor]

have you tried to Play without honor talents AGAINST someone with max talents ? There is a noticeable difference in power. Same goes for a fresh 110 that still miss many artifact traits, against one who has em all... Yet a big difference ! Traits and buffed abilitys !
If you have the same item level the pvp system only equalize your primary and secondary stats. So if you play your main and unlock all honor talents and all your artifact traits you WILL be much more powerful than a new 110.

This!

Someone that has done mythics just has a bonus when starting to PVP compared to a fresh 110 that has done nothing. Those that have been doing PVP longer has access to more talents and the PVE player would still need to PVP for a while to get access to those talents.

So while they are leveling the PVP talents, feel free to get your kills!

[purebalance]

Hello, i'm the only one that feels that the PVP feeling from legion will be empty?
Since i can work very hard to get a good gear for my character, play hours for days and my friend who just get until level 110 will have almost the same power as me?

How empty has become the part of being a bit different in the game?
- Your items dont matter.
- Your Talents dont matter (since i can change then anytime i want how much i want for free).
- Your Specialization dont matter (since i can change it also anytime).

So whats matter in PVP? Get PVP talents to reset?
No more wow feeling like: "look this is my strong rogue", now is jsut "look this is my 'just get level 110 rogue' ".
I'm not talking about grinding gears, but i believe iLVL scaling could work better. Blizzard is just putting everyone in the same bag and throwing in the river.
Imagine you raiding with the same stats just 0.1% calculated by ur iLVL? Would be cool?

Good times when you had to plan your to make a build, calculate the best choices, work hard to be a champion!
We live in the years of no effort, everything on your hands.
I believe they are driving WoW into the same role as Diablo went( and its not a good place for a game, diablo mechanics is terrible nowdays)...

I think you need to read the blogs more clearly because items do matter exactly the same as they did in WoD.

10 ilvls power gain in Legion actually has been said to be slightly stronger than 10 ilvls in WoD(depending on your class/spec).

The only real issue is that all stats are equalizing meaning you cannot focus a particular stat short of the "mastery"(not literal mastery) stat each spec has which will be slightly boosted assuming those abilities are still there and I haven't seen their removal. However if your class/spec has 1 secondary that is godlike while the others are shit stats, you're kind of screwed.

Your other issue seems to imply that someone who plays more will not get benefit. The contrary is true here. Not only will you get your honor talents more quickly, but you also will get gear more quickly. Just like someone who does both PVE and PVP will be better on both fronts.

Most raid upgrades tend to be about the same as well in terms of being 0.1%.

[Allenseiei]

Which makes gear more of a factor in legion than in WoD since you will be at a disadvantage for a longer period of time.

Your subjective claim that it takes longer falls flat. While "time" is definitely hard to estimate with RNG, you are looking at a system that can reward you with pieces of gear each time you do an arena and that the ilvl / quality only depends on your current rating.

Well you lack basic understanding of game mechanics like item levels so they are just trying to establish your credentials. Since the math isn't there the next step would be your experience.

You yourself lack basic understanding of the system as a whole. Establishing credentials in such a way is meaningless since anyone can post an armory link and say "that's me".


Instead of talking about ilvl micromanagement, you should be asking for a system like GW2, where you are instantly at 100% with no progression or almost no progression. If this is the case, then you and blizzard disagree on design philosophy.