[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Keiyra]

Which brings us back to the question: What artifact proc?

Touch of the moon - the % chance to be healed when you get hit

IE: i mean HT is so bad that you wouldn't use it in combat period.

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So you advise dropping moonkin form to try and cast this heal and then wasting more time to go back into moonkin to cast a spell that isn't very good in the first place?

No, i advise not comparing HT to healing surge - that just not a functional comparison to make. RG is comparable to surge. RG just also has all those drawbacks you listed above. IE: you're borked for healing in combat

[Alame]

It's not only the numbers.

The Eclipse Bar was hated by many. Personally I liked it and I see it as the glue that holds the spec together. All (most) abilities interact with it and it interacts with the abilities and mechanics. My view on the Legion Moonkin is that by losing Eclipse it went from an omelette to eggs, no pun intended, scattered around the kitchen. There is no cohesion in the spec's mechanics and it simply does not offer an engaging playstyle for me.

This is the correct answer.

They removed the mechanic the spec was centered around and didn't replace it's function. Astral power is a replacement for the SS/SF charge system, not for Eclipse. The result is disjointed gameplay.

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Besides, complaining about numbers when some specs are still doing twice as much as others and tanks are beating half the dps (and healers) is just pointless. Tuning is not finished until after first week of hcs.

You do realize I'm advocating for mechanics changes and have been from the start? I really don't think you understand the argument, because you have yet to present an actual counter-point.

[Glengolars]

Hey guys, I'm loving the discussion here about the spec! Just wanted to ask if the only interaction dots have with the rest of our kit is that minor AsP gain when you're not talented in Shooting Stars. Seems rather... blant?

[Deleted]

This is the correct answer.

They removed the mechanic the spec was centered around and didn't replace it's function. Astral power is a replacement for the SS/SF charge system, not for Eclipse. The result is disjointed gameplay.

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You do realize I'm advocating for mechanics changes and have been from the start? I really don't think you understand the argument, because you have yet to present an actual counter-point.

So my point about raid and pvp environments suffering from similar aoe damage is not a valid argument? k.

[Lucrece]

This is the correct answer.

They removed the mechanic the spec was centered around and didn't replace it's function. Astral power is a replacement for the SS/SF charge system, not for Eclipse. The result is disjointed gameplay.

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You do realize I'm advocating for mechanics changes and have been from the start? I really don't think you understand the argument, because you have yet to present an actual counter-point.

Common theme to balance revamps.

It's not remotely a revamp, just a shifting around of resource bars.

They're so lazy they can't even come up with new spells or interactions so you end up with clones like sunfire/moonfire which are virtually the same except one spreads; they even share a recycled recolor of an animation.

Lunar Strike and Wrath are another example. Lunar Strike could be distinguished in interaction if empowerments were changed and you only get one empowerment that reduces the cast time of lunar strike per stack.

They just simply tried to stick the square in the circle slot and call it a day when it came to balance's new coat of paint.

[Adramelch]

Hey guys, I'm loving the discussion here about the spec! Just wanted to ask if the only interaction dots have with the rest of our kit is that minor AsP gain when you're not talented in Shooting Stars. Seems rather... blant?

Starfall also empowers the damagefrom your dots.

[Alame]

So my point about raid and pvp environments suffering from similar aoe damage is not a valid argument? k.

No one is talking about Raid and PvP environments. We are talking about Mythic+ and Challenge Mode environments.

Please tell me again how you understand the point being made? By your own admission you do not.

[Deleted]

No one is talking about Raid and PvP environments. We are talking about Mythic+ and Challenge Mode environments.

Please tell me again how you understand the point being made? By your own admission you do not.

What. Your proposed change has a negative effect on Raid and PvP environments. How is that not relevant? You can't just ignore two of the main aspects of the game to balance around a third.

[Frostyfire14]

I hate to say it, but I'm enjoying Nature's Balance on the PTR. :/

I still find it to be a dull talent. Needs to add a passive Starsurge cost reduction or something along those lines. It's targeted to the Moonkin who want to roll non-stop (not re-apply dots), might as well put Nitro on that bad boy.

[Kilma]

It's not only the numbers.

The Eclipse Bar was hated by many. Personally I liked it and I see it as the glue that holds the spec together. All (most) abilities interact with it and it interacts with the abilities and mechanics. My view on the Legion Moonkin is that by losing Eclipse it went from an omelette to eggs, no pun intended, scattered around the kitchen. There is no cohesion in the spec's mechanics and it simply does not offer an engaging playstyle for me.

I agree. Build, Dump, Build, Dump is really lackluster even warriors don't focus on building rage this much except during execute.

Also why the fk doesn't CA or Incarn apply both DoTs? is that too strong?

There also more to it than that. I remember back in MoP we also had a lot of utility while bringing decent damage. Moonkins also had a decent defensive with Symbiosis (at least one dk, lock or rogue in the group). In Legion all that has been stripped and we bring - Beam? Still stuck with a 20% defensive and forced to shift bear if things get really hairy.

Meanwhile, Locks and Mages still have their similar utility but are significantly better at doing damage.

[garonne]

most classes/specs are shifting to the build/dump mechanic because it actually works. there are differences to show uniqueness however its a system that works and i personally think its a good decision. I like controlling my character.

with that said, i dont understand how you dont see cohesion. build astral power, use it on a spender, spender buffs builders etc etc, its cyclical. its similar with aoe but with more emphasis on dots as you can spread those.

[Arborus]

most classes/specs are shifting to the build/dump mechanic because it actually works. there are differences to show uniqueness however its a system that works and i personally think its a good decision. I like controlling my character.

with that said, i dont understand how you dont see cohesion. build astral power, use it on a spender, spender buffs builders etc etc, its cyclical. its similar with aoe but with more emphasis on dots as you can spread those.

The problem is that there's no longer a "balance" theme to the class. You're not balancing Solar and Lunar energies with the eclipse mechanic. You're not balancing anything. You're casting Incinerate in order to cast Chaos Bolt. Except Chaos Bolt happens to buff your Incinerate damage for a few casts. It just doesn't *feel* like Balance Druid anymore. The ability kit is disjointed at best and is otherwise a very generic builder/spender class. It doesn't have anything that makes it especially interesting in the way Shadow Priest or Warlock does.

[Alame]

What. Your proposed change has a negative effect on Raid and PvP environments. How is that not relevant? You can't just ignore two of the main aspects of the game to balance around a third.

Like you propose ignoring 2 aspects of content to "balance" raids and PvP?

You've again missed that the changes I want are through talents, or other opt-in mechanical changes that gives us a viable build in this type of content.

Have you read any of my posts, in the 3-4 times this has been discussed? It sure doesn't seem like it.

[Juvencus]

most classes/specs are shifting to the build/dump mechanic because it actually works. there are differences to show uniqueness however its a system that works and i personally think its a good decision. I like controlling my character.

with that said, i dont understand how you dont see cohesion. build astral power, use it on a spender, spender buffs builders etc etc, its cyclical. its similar with aoe but with more emphasis on dots as you can spread those.

The spells have not interaction between them, other than emp. and starfall affecting dots. Both of which can get in the way of your gameplay. Emps cap makes you cast the generator you don't want or overcap it and lose effective Starsurge damage. Starfall not only requires a considerable ramp-up by itself, but you also need to setup the dots to be running, because its duration is short and if you don't, you don't do the damage you've been balanced for.

You say Moonkins got back control. I say sure, but it's barred behind mundane restrictions.

Additionally, no crit (or other stat) effects, no procs, no refund mechanics, non-existent defense, laughable self-healing. It's not like any amount of additional feedback would change this. Months have passed where it was properly provided and nothing was done. So all that remains is to complain, unfortunately, and hope for a change. It's just bare...a template of a spec.

[Cyous]

A couple design notes:

This spec doesn't work well with RNG.

Whether you like it or not, Starfall is designed to be a non-cooldown, non-single-target AOE ability. It uses Starsurge to balance it out, just like in WOD.

Whether you like it or not, our "best times" were Builder/Spender -- Cata and MOP. If you want to talk design, then you need to know what you're looking at first. If you don't understand how Cata and MOP Eclipse were "Builder/Spender", then you just need to think about it for more than a couple seconds, or remove yourself from the conversation (and get learnt good).

Most of our issues are TUNING issues. Some design issues exist, and that's understandable. Barkskin is a tuning issue. Stellar Drift and Nature's Balance are tuning issues. Self-healing is a tuning issue. Utility is a mechanical issue. Ramp-up time is not an issue, you're just stupid for not taking AC and/or using New Moon properly. And ofc, our damage is a tuning issue.

Overhauls will never happen this late unless something is literally broken beyond fixing. Get over it. You are literally wasting your time (and mine, because I have to keep replying to the same 2-5 comments every build to push the discussion to a more constructive topic).

[garonne]

honestly, you were never balancing anything, there was more "balance in mop" than wod. currently you use certain spells when the bar is left, and others when it is right.

in this new mechanic, the empowerment provides something similar, even if rather simple.

to say there's no interaction is untrue as well. MF/SnF and SW and LS, give your astral power (interaction with spenders), astral power is used on Starfall or starsurge. Starsurge/starfall buffs Mf/SnF and Sw and LS (interaction with dots and builders). its cyclical and there is interaction, the whole rotation interacts with each other.

also, there is gameplay with moon spells to give a flux of resource. also not sure what mundane restrictions youre talking about.

[Lucrece]

I don't think the Starfall costs are fine because AC combined with Moon spells relieves its ramp up every 45+ seconds. Starsurge certainly in its current cost bears no such dependency, so I'm not sure why Starfall should be tied to the cooldown of an artifact ability and a talent to not feel crappy.

I will never cast Starfall as is over Starsurge in PvP. It's too easy to trivialize its damage for the enormous resource cost.

[Deleted]

Like you propose ignoring 2 aspects of content to "balance" raids and PvP?

You've again missed that the changes I want are through talents, or other opt-in mechanical changes that gives us a viable build in this type of content.

Have you read any of my posts, in the 3-4 times this has been discussed? It sure doesn't seem like it.

Yes, I would rather that different classes have different strengths and weaknesses in raids (aoe being one of them) than have 33 specs performing within a 5-10% difference in mythic+. Lucky for me, blizzard seems to share that opinion. If your suggestion is so god damn brilliant and I just keep misunderstanding it (which I must, because it makes absolutely no sense to me how it wouldn't affect any other aspect of the game than dungeons), why don't you bring it to blizzard? I'm sure they'd be thrilled if you found a way to balance mythic+ dps that requires no work other than adding a talent, and has absolutely no sideeffects.

[Frostyfire14]

I smell elitism in these last couple of posts. Fellow Boomkins, settle down.

Do not get this thread locked over some disagreements, followed through with name-calling and harassments.

There is a lot of information people are desperately searching for regarding this beloved specialization. And thankfully we do have the people who play this spec to take the time out of their day to number crunch and craft theories.

Just a friendly reminder from a fellow Boomkin to please keep it civil.

[huth]

Stellar Drift and Nature's Balance are tuning issues.

While i agree with the rest, NB is not a tuning issue. There's no knob on NB they could turn to make it adequate(or even noticeably better), and the one they had was removed.