BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Deleted]

I'm rooting for yes

[Deleted]

You mischaracterised the Leave campaign. But it's okay. We all have our biases.

I didn't mischaracterise it at all. If you want to go that route then you can say that Boris was mischaracterising the Remain campaign.

[Slant]

Firstly the uk pays more into the eu than we get out of it so i dont get why you say we get freebies where as the french farmers get unfair subsidies and the spanish get to fish in are waters that limits how much we can fish. Those special deals arnt that special other countries have special relationships out of the eu that have a much smaller economy that the uk. Also the uk imports alot more goods than in exports to the eu so its the eu that will be loosing more money through trade than the uk. The sentiment from the eu has always been the same we are the outsides and we got over it along time ago but your have forgotten there are many many other eu countries that have did polls to suggest if the uk leaves they want a vote to so look up you facts on that instead of using your own feelings

I wouldn't talk about unfair subsidies when 66% of what you pay flows right back into the UK as part of your rebate deals. I'd be really, really fucking careful about pointing fingers at others. You get access to the single market for a historically cheap discount and you should count your blessings for that. As for fishing, you fish in French and Norwegian waters as much as they fish in yours, so cut the crap about some idiot fishing in your waters. The limitations that were put in place were put in place because your dumbass fishing industry was acutally literally emptying the oceans. No more fish, no more fishing. That's a simple concept you should be able to understand.

You're importing more goods. Yes, and that'll continue. And you (the end consumer) will either pay customs for it, because you're not part of the single market, or you'll lose all special deals you made in the process of renegotiating access to the single market. What, did you think things would continue as they are if you leave? What the fuck do you think is going to happen when you just quit the EU? Do you think you're entitled to the same preferential treatment that you got so far? Newsflash, you're going to lose that privilege.

And the sentiment that "you're the outsiders" that's a purely British sentiment. The whole idea of "we're different" is exclusively a UK idea. Europe never said that. Europe never wanted that. Europe was always fucking annoyed at England somehow insinuating that they never fully commit to the cause, that they think they're better than everyone else. Well then, you are. Prove it. :P

As for the other countries wanting to leave, they'll need to understand a crucial thing about the EU. All the advantages of the EU, nobody is entitled to them. They're privileged to having been invited. And these advantages are only offered to members or to countries making huge ass concessions to get them (Norway, Switzerland, who btw still aren't done negotiating, and they've started what 70 years ago?).

[caervek]

A referendum with 46 million ballots is hardly a computer game. You're simplifying the issue a bit too much.

In case anyone is wondering how it is being done. There are 41,000 polling stations across 382 voting areas, the 382 voting areas are grouped into twelve regional counts (the will be separate declarations for each of the regional counts), the regional counts are grouped into four national counts (England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales) and the four national counts are combined into the total.

Whichever side (Leave/Remain) has the highest % of the total wins.

[DarkAmbient]

Kellner is predicting a Remain win by 8.5% http://politicscounter.com/?p=95

He did get it spectacularly wrong at the general election, so who knows right now.

[Mace]

No, the EU isn't trying to do that. There is a key difference between a fascist dictator and democratically elected officials.

ofc there is, the whole point about it is people telling you want to do without so much as your leave. Make, change whole string of decisions and you have no say in any of it or very tiny tiny tiny chance of saying.

it's not good enough for me, I'm surprised that it will be for you. I'm not happy with having no influence on such important decisions made about governance.. It seems all rosey and dandy if you believe in the same ideals and you agree, then comes the time when you don't agree, when it really hurts you, what then? This is what is at stake!

And as scary as it may seem standing on my own two feet and not having a cushion of a secret society determining things for me, I would prefer my own two feet thank you.

Are you not even the slightest worried about the people that are leading you? You don't know what sort they are, what they stand for, what they'll do etc, how can you trust them with so much? Isn't it better when you are able to decide and have the power to remove them if they go in directions that are crap or disastrous or just wrong for you?

You're giving up your ability and right to actually do so, you're saying hey Brussels, we trust you to do everything for us, you know what's best, you're the experts, you decide... when did Brits become so lame or so cowardly? That's not British, it's not me, and on this basis alone - I say get out of it FAST !

I don't appreciate threats from Germany or the EU and I'm not intimidated by them "we'll make things difficult for you" ? Are you serious? These are the people you want to entrust yourself too. Look...we're all human beings, we have a common bond, but we're not all the same, and we don't all agree, it's acutally good that we have individual nations like they are... we dont' have to be in an EU to sort out our diplomatic issues, we can do so without,

All I see is an un opposed rule that would be impossible to get out under and you wonder why I compare it to Hitler or dictatorships. How do you get out when you don't want to? Think about how much worse that will be after a referendum result says in and now you have to step fully in, to then go back later and say we want out will be much harder ... which is why David Cameron tells you there is no turning back.

I'm sorry, it's too much at stake. Our sovereignty and freedom versus the possibility of economic hardship for a few more years (not even a certainty and possibly quite unlikely), is no contest at all.

[Pua]

Hum, it's a bit different than that. Greece always had the choice. The choice was simply, not comply and crash, or comply and deal with it. They're human beings, if they want to fuck themselves, that's okay. But as long as Germany fires billions of Euros up their arse, they'll take the conditions that we set. They can always refuse the money. This is where your analogy fails, btw.

It wasn't a perfect analogy, nor was it meant to be. The general idea of how the EU is supposed to work was the only point I was trying to make.

But if it's any consolation, it's wholly unsurprising to see a German take no responsibility for riding roughshod over a country's right to democratically choose. Nobody would argue that the Greeks were innocent; certainly not anyone who knows anything about it. But the Greeks did choose a different economic plan that was offered to them - and they were told to go fuck themselves.

Those who had previously believed the EU as a force for democratic good got an old fashioned chill up their spine the moment it happened.

Germany decided how a national economy that wasn't their own would be run. Not that nation's people.

It was as undemocratic as you can get.

[caervek]

ofc there is, the whole point about it is people telling you want to do without so much as your leave. Make, change whole string of decisions and you have no say in any of it or very tiny tiny tiny chance of saying.

Sorry but I don't understand any of this

[Deleted]

It wasn't a perfect analogy, nor was it meant to be. The general idea of how the EU is supposed to work was the only point I was trying to make.

But if it's any consolation, it's wholly unsurprising to see a German take no responsibility for riding roughshod over a country's right to democratically choose. Nobody would argue that the Greeks were innocent; certainly not anyone who knows anything about it. But the Greeks did choose a different economic plan that was offered to them - and they were told to go fuck themselves.

Those who had previously believed the EU as a force for democratic good got an old fashioned chill up their spine the moment it happened.

Germany decided how a national economy that wasn't their own would be run. Not that nation's people.

It was as undemocratic as you can get.

When that "different economic plan" amounts to "Yeah we aren't paying you anything back, cheers for the free money though", then they deserve to get fucked over.

I can't turn around to my bank and just say that i'm not going to pay my mortgage anymore.

[Northern Goblin]

Voted and voted to remain.

Even with UKIP blaring their van around the street with bollocks about "THIS IS OUR ONE CHANCE" No it's fucking not you morons.

[Deleted]

ofc there is, the whole point about it is people telling you want to do without so much as your leave. Make, change whole string of decisions and you have no say in any of it or very tiny tiny tiny chance of saying.

it's not good enough for me, I'm surprised that it will be for you. I'm not happy with having no influence on such important decisions made about governance.. It seems all rosey and dandy if you believe in the same ideals and you agree, then comes the time when you don't agree, when it really hurts you, what then? This is what is at stake!

And as scary as it may seem standing on my own two feet and not having a cushion of a secret society determining things for me, I would prefer my own two feet thank you.

Are you not even the slightest worried about the people that are leading you? You don't know what sort they are, what they stand for, what they'll do etc, how can you trust them with so much? Isn't it better when you are able to decide and have the power to remove them if they go in directions that are crap or disastrous or just wrong for you?

You're giving up your ability and right to actually do so, you're saying hey Brussels, we trust you to do everything for us, you know what's best, you're the experts, you decide... when did Brits become so lame or so cowardly? That's not British, it's not me, and on this basis alone - I say get out of it FAST !

I don't appreciate threats from Germany or the EU and I'm not intimidated by them "we'll make things difficult for you" ? Are you serious? These are the people you want to entrust yourself too. Look...we're all human beings, we have a common bond, but we're not all the same, and we don't all agree, it's acutally good that we have individual nations like they are... we dont' have to be in an EU to sort out our diplomatic issues, we can do so without,

All I see is an un opposed rule that would be impossible to get out under and you wonder why I compare it to Hitler or dictatorships. How do you get out when you don't want to? Think about how much worse that will be after a referendum result says in and now you have to step fully in, to then go back later and say we want out will be much harder ... which is why David Cameron tells you there is no turning back.

I'm sorry, it's too much at stake. Our sovereignty and freedom versus the possibility of economic hardship for a few more years (not even a certainty and possibly quite unlikely), is no contest at all.

No idea what you're rambling about. When it comes to laws being passed countries vote. Your country has been on the winning side 2466 times and lost 56. That's probably higher than any other country in the EU. That would mean that your country is the one that wants most of these laws anyway and thus is the most similiar to what the EU aims for.

You will have sovereignty yes but you will have to bend over and take new laws up the ass and pay for it just like Norway does.
Want trade agreements, you will have to pay for them...
Want visa free travel in Schengen you will have to pay EU for it and accept laws passed just like Norway.

[Slant]

It wasn't a perfect analogy, nor was it meant to be. The general idea of how the EU is supposed to work was the only point I was trying to make.

But if it's any consolation, it's wholly unsurprising to see a German take no responsibility for riding roughshod over a country's right to democratically choose. Nobody would argue that the Greeks were innocent; certainly not anyone who knows anything about it. But the Greeks did choose a different economic plan that was offered to them - and they were told to go fuck themselves.

Those who had previously believed the EU as a force for democratic good got an old fashioned chill up their spine the moment it happened.

Germany decided how a national economy that wasn't their own would be run. Not that nation's people.

It was as undemocratic as you can get.

Listen to yourself... here's a country, begging Germany for hundreds of billions of Euros over the next decade and you think it's okay that they demand, actually demand to spend it as they see fit? And when Germany says "Uhh, no, IF we give you money, we want you to spend it like so" and that's what you call undemocratic? Wtf is going on in your head?

Look at the other side, the democratic decision in Germany was to not waste our money. That's what we voted our Government into office for. Just throwing billions into the Agaeis for fun wasn't part of the plan. Of course we take responsibility for playing hardball with Greece. And rightly so, because it's our money.

What irks me the most is that you think there's some sort of fucked up obligation for us to dish out that amount of money. No, there isn't. This was pure goodwill, we could've let them rot. Everyone bloody asked us to let them rot. Even some Greeks asked us to let them rot. And when we're being nice and try to help them, you come along with your two minute argument of "But if you give them billions, you should let them burn the money in the oven as they see fit!"

In what world does that fly? When did you EVER see a country hand over that kind of money unconditionally?

[DarkAmbient]

Voted and voted to remain.

Even with UKIP blaring their van around the street with bollocks about "THIS IS OUR ONE CHANCE" No it's fucking not you morons.

How soon do you think we could get another referendum?

[Noradin]

No, it's actually about objective knowledge. And if all else fails, it's a question of properly educating the voting base about the issues. Something that has been neglected for far too long.

Yes, as I said, about objective knowledge that would be useful for advising someone (which includes themselves). That is where you can approximate correct answers from polling everyone, because the noise filters out. (It can still fail for subjetive reasons such as people disliking the one asking for advice.)

In voting though there is no noise, everyone has some opinion on something they decide to vent in that voting opportunity they are given and since referendums are intentionally set up with two sides to polarize that effect is amplified even. I do not think referendums are a good idea in most cases. I have yet to see one where I think they were preferable to other voting models regarding the outcome of the vote.

[Deleted]

How soon do you think we could get another referendum?

Well considered that if we vote to leave, Scotland will be having another independence referendum as quickly as possible, we can have one again as soon as we want.

If we vote to remain, I guarantee you there will be a party in the next general election that runs with the promise of another referendum with regards to EU membership.

[Slant]

Yes, as I said, about objective knowledge that would be useful for advising someone (which includes themselves). That is where you can approximate correct answers from polling everyone, because the noise filters out. (It can still fail for subjetive reasons such as people disliking the one asking for advice.)

In voting though there is no noise, everyone has some opinion on something they decide to vent in that voting opportunity they are given and since referendums are intentionally set up with two sides to polarize that effect is amplified even. I do not think referendums are a good idea in most cases. I have yet to see one where I think they were preferable to other voting models regarding the outcome of the vote.

Oh, I agree. Letting the general idiot population take decisions on a scale like this is bloody stupid. There's a reason we only allow referendums on regional scales in Germany.

[Northern Goblin]

How soon do you think we could get another referendum?

As soon as we like, if the EU went to shit tomorrow we could throw one up again.

There's no law saying "maximum 1 referendum per X length of time."

[Slant]

As soon as we like, if the EU went to shit tomorrow we could throw one up again.

There's no law saying "maximum 1 referendum per X length of time."

Well, I'm guessing the initiation of it has to come from the Government so you can expect it not to happen too often.

[caervek]

There's no law saying "maximum 1 referendum per X length of time."

The law of common sense does, that would be very bad economically.

The price of petrol hasn't jumped 10p a litre over the last 3 months due to oil prices, it's been due to the £ falling in value.

[Deleted]

Hum, it's a bit different than that. Greece always had the choice. The choice was simply, not comply and crash, or comply and deal with it. They're human beings, if they want to fuck themselves, that's okay. But as long as Germany fires billions of Euros up their arse, they'll take the conditions that we set. They can always refuse the money. This is where your analogy fails, btw.

See, it's not Germany that got them into the mess. It's the Greeks themselves that dug that hole. Germany is just trying to get them out of it, but they'll have to do the actual climbing themselves. All we can do is lend a hand. And we'll make damn sure Greece isn't pulling us down into that hole with them, that'll help nobody.

- - - Updated - - -

What Aviemore said is completely true. Germany completely decided what Greece should do contrary to the people. And a default would not be bad for Greece. There were really only two ways for a humane resolution. Greece is allowed to default and introduce it's own currency. Or cuts into Greece's debt. Instead Germany performed a financial holocaust on them. Let's not forget Germany got one of the largest debt write offs in hsitory after WW2.

Your point about Germany trying to get Greece out of a hole is just adorable. You have no idea how the world works. The whole point was to force Greece into selling off national assets. Do you even understand the money that got lent to Greece is the problem? The money that is being lent right now is still the problem? It only creates more debt. Now I'm not saying Greece did everything right. But the blame is on the lender aswell. The money got lent in hopes this exact situation would happen.