BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Noradin]

"This Thursday I believe, can be our country's' independence day"

Thats one powerful closing liner

Yes, it sure makes for a grand and impressive lie.
Fitting closure to this campain.

[Deleted]

Voted leave, get away from these German cunts making all the wrong decisions.
Fuck Germany fuck Brussels, we didnt need them before and we dont need them now.

Im pro leave but people like you give use a bad name so start acting like a grown up.

[Whiskeyjack WN]

Firstly the uk pays more into the eu than we get out of it so i dont get why you say we get freebies where as the french farmers get unfair subsidies and the spanish get to fish in are waters that limits how much we can fish. Those special deals arnt that special other countries have special relationships out of the eu that have a much smaller economy that the uk. Also the uk imports alot more goods than in exports to the eu so its the eu that will be loosing more money through trade than the uk. The sentiment from the eu has always been the same we are the outsides and we got over it along time ago but your have forgotten there are many many other eu countries that have did polls to suggest if the uk leaves they want a vote to so look up you facts on that instead of using your own feelings

The thing you have to remember is they will struggle to see the Uk's point of view. The EU needs the UK a lot more than the UK needs the EU. And Germany needs the EU (without the EU Germany would be a shell of what it is now). The UK leaving puts the stability and even the survival of the EU at risk, So understandably the European users on here (especially the German ones) are angry at the UK for threatening the survival of something they have worked hard to build.

You can see from Slant's latest posts that he has moved from constructive argument onto anger (almost). This is understandable, but ultimately it is a selfish motivation. They are not interested in what is best for the UK but rather what is best for their own countries... which is the survival of the EU.

Whether leaving or staying is best for the UK is a moot point, what I am saying is i think the UK's interests are not the reason behind the arguments from non UK members, which is where the threats and 'how dare you' statements come from.

[Deleted]

Leaving would not recover any sovereignity, it would mean giving it away.
Right now the UK gets a voice in EU matters, if they leave they won't anymore.
The UK would go from deciding matters as a group to letting a group decide for them.

How is that a gain in sovereignity?

UK voted on the winning side 2466 times when i came to passing laws. You lost 56. That is having an influence.
UK had a different opinion 2% of the time.

Clearly it seems that EU or no EU your countries politicians want most what has passed in EU.

edit: spelling.

[ati87]

Depends how close a possible Remain vote is. If it's, say, 52% remain/48% leave then you could be right. Such a slim win will do little to settle the EU question.

I think a narrow win for Remain will have a very interesting effect on UK politics. For one, I don't see how the Tories can move on from this comfortably. They have too many Eurosceptics in their ranks for them to put the issue to bed. It wouldn't surprise me if a new political group emerges.

Whatever happens I think the EU countries will probably reject the current status qua and stop with the ton of exceptions the UK has been getting.

If the Uk decides to leave I would expect the insult being enough to demand the jackpot during negotiations
If the UK decides to stay I would also expect that the EU will want more corroboration of the UK, I'm tbh kind of tired of the UK always demanding more exceptions.

[Mace]

Sorry but I don't understand any of this

You don't decide what decisions are made on your behalf, the EUs convoluted body does, and does so in secret. Deciding for you what's best, how exactly you should do x , y and z. In other words, they are telling you that you are not qualified or responsible enough or even sensible enough to make your own decisions, that you need an expert (the bureaucrat in Brussels) to make all these decisions for you. This is best for you.

I disagree, I say people should decide for themselves, or at the very least I don't need somebody to dictate to me every facet of my life. This is how it's a dictatorship, they decide, and I can't do anything about it. Not even my Prime Minister could do anything about the things he tried to change, which is why we are having a referendum in the first place. Certainly our government can't, which is what the EU careful weeds out, your government is effectively powerless as you cede more powers to Brussels, I say we should decide not them.

[dribbles]

You got nothing, mate. And that's the harsh truth of it. You just got nothing...

Absolutely!

We are your customer, you are not ours. Ever heard that the "customer is king"? Economics not a strong point of yours obviously.

[Deleted]

Remain will prolly win which is a pity. Id have loved to see peoples reaction to the consequences of a brexit.

[Noradin]

Because they don't understand it. And this is the main critique point that I'll concede. The EU is doing a shite job at explaining itself. In German schools you have entire classes teaching students about our Parliament and Government, with role plays and stuff. You learn about democracy from the age of 14 onwards here. But not a word about the EU until you enter university and study either law or politics. That's pathetic.

Yes, the problem is that they left this up to the member states, but one is getting the impression that the UK only ever joined to make sure they could sabotage it from the inside. Their politicans made a slight miscalculation though and overbid, thus they are now losing their scapegoat.

[Northern Goblin]

Yes, and if an Asteroid falls on mainland Europe, I expect the UK will pull out as well. Would you like to stick to more likely scenarios than those two, though?

It was in relation to how soon another referendum could happen, and the "OUR ONE CHANCE" bollocks rhetoric that UKIP are spouting.

The truth is there isn't a limit on how often we can make this decision, and we retain the right to do it all again tomorrow should doomsday happen, that was the point I was making.


People seem to think if we vote remain, that's it and we're fucked if it all goes to shit.

[Lorianus]

The thing you have to remember is they will struggle to see the Uk's point of view. The EU needs the UK as much, if not more, then the UK needs the EU. And Germany needs the EU. The UK leaving puts the stability and even the survival of the EU at risk, So understandably the European users on here (especially the German ones) are angry at the UK for threatening the survival of something they have worked hard to build.

You can see from Slant's latest posts that he has moved from constructive argument onto anger (almost). This is understandable, but ultimately it is a selfish motivation. They are not interested in what is best for the UK but rather what is best for their own countries... which is the survival of the EU.

Whether leaving or staying is best for the UK is a moot point, what I am saying is i think the UK's interests are not the reason behind the arguments from non UK members, which is where the threats and 'how dare you' statements come from.

Nah the anger comes from the british superiority complex that you folks let us know for the last 43 years you were part of the European Union.

[Dizzeeyooo]

You don't decide what decisions are made on your behalf, the EUs convoluted body does, and does so in secret. Deciding for you what's best, how exactly you should do x , y and z. In other words, they are telling you that you are not qualified or responsible enough or even sensible enough to make your own decisions, that you need an expert (the bureaucrat in Brussels) to make all these decisions for you. This is best for you.

UK voted on the winning side 2466 times then i came to passing laws. You lost 56. How is that not already deciding laws and regulations ?
UK had a different opinion 2% of the time.

yep how dare the EU tell us to do things that we actually vote for as part of the EU

[caervek]

the eu also gave us the equal right to fish in spanish waters

The reason the spanish sail hundreds of miles to steal our fish is because there isn't enough in their waters.

it also imposed limits to stop overall overfishing - ie, to stop us fucking our own fishing supplies

Something they should have zero say in.

[Deleted]

The thing you have to remember is they will struggle to see the Uk's point of view. The EU needs the UK a lot more than the UK needs the EU. And Germany needs the EU (without the EU Germany would be a shell of what it is now). The UK leaving puts the stability and even the survival of the EU at risk, So understandably the European users on here (especially the German ones) are angry at the UK for threatening the survival of something they have worked hard to build.

You can see from Slant's latest posts that he has moved from constructive argument onto anger (almost). This is understandable, but ultimately it is a selfish motivation. They are not interested in what is best for the UK but rather what is best for their own countries... which is the survival of the EU.

Whether leaving or staying is best for the UK is a moot point, what I am saying is i think the UK's interests are not the reason behind the arguments from non UK members, which is where the threats and 'how dare you' statements come from.

We like the UK, but we certainly as hell don't need them in the EU. But I do want them in the EU because they can be ones pushing for structural and important changes in the EU that every citizen agrees that needs to happen, and even the European Politicians get that now, thanks to the UK.

[caervek]

Nah the anger comes from the british superiority complex that you folks let us know for the last 43 years you were part of the European Union.

The European Union was formed in 1992, prior to that we were all part of the EEC, a trading group that didn't interfere in each others politics or impose stupid/damaging legislation all over the place.

This is why most of the older generation are in favour of leaving, because they remember how much better Europe was before the EU was formed.

[DarkAmbient]

Remain will prolly win which is a pity. Id have loved to see peoples reaction to the consequences of a brexit.

All of the polling right now is suggesting a win for Remain. Populus just came out with 55% remain.

[Noradin]

Uuuh, nope. The EU actually expects the formal request on the next EU summit if the UK votes for a Brexit. "Expect" as in, they've prepared to exclude Cameron from the summit meeting as soon as he hands over the letter and stuff. The EU is taking this very seriously and I wouldn't be surprised if they put pressure on Cameron to make up his mind really, really fast on when and how he's going to get things going.

If the votum turns out to leave I strongly expect the EU to set him an ultimatum to make up his mind before the next summit on pain of the EU starting the process to kick them out forcefully. The uncertainity they produce has dealt us enough damage already. Damage I do not see them paying for. It is their decision, so the consequences should be on them, also.
That is what sovereignty means: Making decisions and accepting the consequences.

[Mace]

No idea what you're rambling about. When it comes to laws being passed countries vote. Your country has been on the winning side 2466 times and lost 56. That's probably higher than any other country in the EU. That would mean that your country is the one that wants most of these laws anyway and thus is the most similiar to what the EU aims for.

You will have sovereignty yes but you will have to bend over and take new laws up the ass and pay for it just like Norway does.
Want trade agreements, you will have to pay for them...
Want visa free travel in Schengen you will have to pay EU for it and accept laws passed just like Norway.

Country has been on the winning side because it has been in agreement with the EUs decisions, the issue is when it is not in agreement with the EU, the 70 times that has happened 70 times it has made no difference. It's an illusion of control. The point is when you want to do something different, you don't have the freedom to do, even when it affects your own people and your nation, your industries, your border controls - that's the problem.

It's effectively saying that we can't make these decisions for ourselves, so we should let Brussles/Strasbourg decide, I say no. We can decide, and we should. I don't trust Brussels or Strasbourg, I don't trust nameless people I cannot elect, and have no control over.

I can elect my own governemnt a fraction of tehw hole thing, I don't elect anyone else or control anyone else, neither can I affect their decisions, I'm not happy and I don't think it's a good thing to trust anyone with so much power, let alone people I don't know. My government doesn't have that power, we have the power over our governement, that's not the case with the EU.. .

I say don't be afriad, don't sell out on the risk that you might struggle a little bit more for a few more years economically, that's not even a certainity, it's a big if, don't let a little change be the price of your freedom and sovreignty. This is Britain, remember the Britannia song? Britain shall never be slaves. Don't choose willingly to be one.

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Your whole chain of arguments collapses because the point you base it on is false.
It applies to the UK though.

I see, and which point is that?

[Dizzeeyooo]

Something they should have zero say in.

indeed, if we want to fuck our own fishing supplies we should dam well be allowed to do so, who cares about the future hehe

I say don't be afriad, don't sell out on the risk that you might struggle a little bit more for a few more years economically, that's not even a certainity, it's a big if, don't let a little change be the price of your freedom and sovreignty. This is Britain, remember the Britannia song? Britain shall never be slaves. Don't choose willingly to be one

we are slaves to the EU because we disagreed with 2% of the laws the EU has passed! lolol

I see, and which point is that?

quite literally every single point you make is absolute rubbish, so not sure which one he is individually referring to

[Deleted]

The European Union was formed in 1992, prior to that we were all part of the EEC, a trading group that didn't interfere in each others politics or impose stupid/damaging legislation all over the place.

This is why most of the older generation are in favour of leaving, because they remember how much better Europe was before the EU was formed.

The majority of older people vote remain because they think about their grandchildren, they want their lives to be stable and certain.