[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Dimzum]

At what ilvl do Demon Hunters end up after finishing the whole introduction experience ?

680ish if my memory serves me right.

[Yoshimiko]

Does Demonic + Soul Rending work together?

If so - What kind of damage are we expecting from Eye Beam?

Also, when compared to Blood DKs, how is Havoc's healing on beta atm?

Trying to pick ONE main this expansion, split between DK PLD and DH for Tank & DPS. Got 11 classes to choose from.. lol

[grizzlysaurusrex]

At what ilvl do Demon Hunters end up after finishing the whole introduction experience ?

I have a DH fresh out of the starting zone. It got a few quest rewards upgraded to epic and is 684. The majority of the gear you get from it is 680 baseline.

[Factor]

If you're just pushing 2 buttons you've misunderstood and are doing the class very wrong. Even in the ST build.

As a note, I had a DH do that in a run I was healing. He pulled a cool 80k.

Competent DHs pull anywhere from 200-250k, for reference.

I'm not saying you're ONLY pressing two buttons, just that DB and CS are, according to the logs I've seen, 60-70% of the presses.

[Vanyali]

Does Demonic + Soul Rending work together?

If so - What kind of damage are we expecting from Eye Beam?

Also, when compared to Blood DKs, how is Havoc's healing on beta atm?

Yes

It's useless ST, okay AoE

Good with Demonic, bad without Demonic.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not saying you're ONLY pressing two buttons, just that DB and CS are, according to the logs I've seen, 60-70% of the presses.

Same can be said of feral though with bleeds Is my point. It's all about what you're doing with those buttons, not just pushing them... there's some intricacies involved. Less so with CB / Nem, but it has its momentums.

[Otora]

I've noticed that Annihilation is still only refunding 20 Fury rather than "it's cost."

[Yoshimiko]

It's useless ST, okay AoE

Would Demonic make it worth using ST or is it not enough to bring that talent up to snuff?

- - - Updated - - -

Good with Demonic, bad without Demonic.

And crap, I meant Vengeance. For some reason I just can't remember Vengeance = tank.

[Vanyali]

Would Demonic make it worth using ST or is it not enough to bring that talent up to snuff?

And crap, I meant Vengeance. For some reason I just can't remember Vengeance = tank.

No. You use it and cancel it. Last nerf hit it hard as hell.

Venge's survivability is very good. THe change just made it so that you can chose how much healing you'd like to use for your pain & souls, so that's nice flexibility, but for anything comparing to blood you'd have to pop to that thread (or one of them might be lurking around ere, I know I lurk in venge's sometimes )

[Donovan4893]

So I was looking through some more hidden artifact stuff and found that a prot pally and a WW monk got theirs from the end of the withered army scenario in suramar, also a resto druid and a BM monk got theirs from their order hall tier 2 upgrade. Sooo I am pretty sure one of ours either havoc or veng comes from the twisting nether upgrade boss that we cant really test because it doesn't work(based on other classes this I am like 99% sure one will be from), and the other might also come from the withered army scenario.

[Arthael]

Same can be said of feral though with bleeds Is my point. It's all about what you're doing with those buttons, not just pushing them... there's some intricacies involved. Less so with CB / Nem, but it has its momentums.

Don't take this the wrong way, but do you always assume everyone that disagrees with your opinion is because they have 0 idea how to play the class/rotation and/or are complete idiots who don't know "intricacies"? Such a smug way to approach any kind of discussion. I was expecting a tad more objectivity and open-mindedness from someone who frequently posts here.

As you said yourself, its all about what you're doing with those buttons, not pushing them - which, from any logical standpoint, concludes to: its not the amount of buttons that you have on your bars that dictates how complex a spec is, it is how you are forced to manage them.
Yet you are forcing a comparison between Feral and DH based on how many buttons the bar ... why?

Feral has a harder rotation and gameplay, not because of its buttons, but because of how stringent its resource management is - especially without the T18 4p heading into Legion AND no compensatory energy generation mechanism to take a dps heavy talent split. One incorrect button press while Berserk/Inc is not active, and you set yourself back 2 GCDs, and often (actually, almost always) set yourself back even more depending on where your bleeds fall as well as your CDs line up - not to mention ideal snapshotting makes all the difference. And all of this is while standing still, add movement, DPS breaks, adds/aoe and each one magnifies the difficulty execution by a multiplicative factor.

I am not on the bandwagon that is calling DH "braindead", but broadly speaking, the rotation needs relatively little micromanagement and inherently tied to executing two abilities and their sequelae. The "intricacies" that you speak of aren't going to create a dichotomy in DPS rankings (unless playing Momentum of course with positional requirements and timing being key). There is nothing that is inherent to the gameplay that can make you crash and burn or make you seem beyond amazing when compared to the rest of the DHs running amuck. You are either a DH that is pulling 200k or you are a DH that is pulling 180k and everyone else falls in between (unlike Feral where you have people that can do 200k [on live] or most of the ferals who barely eke out 150k with the same gear level).

[Vanyali]

Don't take this the wrong way, but do you always assume everyone that disagrees with your opinion is because they have 0 idea how to play the class/rotation and/or are complete idiots who don't know "intricacies"? Such a smug way to approach any kind of discussion. I was expecting a tad more objectivity and open-mindedness from someone who frequently posts here.

As you said yourself, its all about what you're doing with those buttons, not pushing them - which, from any logical standpoint, concludes to: its not the amount of buttons that you have on your bars that dictates how complex a spec is, it is how you are forced to manage them.
Yet you are forcing a comparison between Feral and DH based on how many buttons the bar ... why?

Feral has a harder rotation and gameplay, not because of its buttons, but because of how stringent its resource management is - especially without the T18 4p heading into Legion AND no compensatory energy generation mechanism to take a dps heavy talent split. One incorrect button press while Berserk/Inc is not active, and you set yourself back 2 GCDs, and often (actually, almost always) set yourself back even more depending on where your bleeds fall as well as your CDs line up - not to mention ideal snapshotting makes all the difference.

I am not on the bandwagon that is calling DH "braindead", but broadly speaking, the rotation needs little to no micromanagement and inherently tied to executing two abilities and their sequelae. The "intricacies" that you speak of aren't going to create a dichotomy in DPS rankings (unless playing Momentum of course with positional requirements and timing being key). There is nothing that is inherent to the gameplay that can make you crash and burn or make you seem beyond amazing when compared to the rest of the DHs running amuck. You are either a DH that is pulling 200k or you are a DH that is pulling 180k and everyone else falls in between (unlike Feral where you have people that can do 200k [on live] or most of the ferals who barely eke out 150k).

No, I just find the "OMG BRAINDEAD TWO BUTTONS" shit super annoying and have zero patience with it. Ran out of that before alpha, due to all the people parroting that.

I bring up feral only because that's what I play, no other reason. I'm more familiar with them than other dps (given a choice, I play tanks or healers in most cases). When people whine about how Legion took buttons, I point toward what I play.. which has the exact same amount keybinds as what I'm playing on Legion. it has zero to do with intricacies, but more "jfc can we not have this discussion of whining about button amount again". That few people dare to touch feral as being a braindead spec because it has few buttons is just an added amusement factor.


Additionally, the difference between a DH that properly utilizes momentum or CB is actually a bit broad; use your Momentum buff on generating because you want to push it and you've done fucked yourself. Fail to have a momentum cover a full demonic and you've lost probably 30k+ dps. Didn't properly pool to rest your CB? Bye, damage! Used your EB to proc Demonic before adds came, and are stuck with BD instead? See ya. That's what I mean by intricacies - DH is going to require that you *know* the fight, that you know what's coming and that you plan and proc and use your abilities with the knowledge of what is coming up far greater than most other classes. Not using Meta at the start of a fight, for example. Or realizing when you're going to pop hero and again, NOT using your big CD.. bit counterintuitive, no? But reality for a DH, because hero is wasted during meta.

[Arthael]

~

Fair enough.

I am with you regarding people and how they ostracize the DH for its button quantity, when there are obviously under-the-table shenanigans that need to be accounted for. Can only hope they learn to accept the class for what it is and if they don't like it, jump over to another forum rather than over exaggerating their stance and assuming people will jump on their wagon.

DH is fun for what it is and it is doing well in the DPS splits with the recent logs in raids. So still a spec to be excited for.

[FinestHour]

what do u guys think will happen to momentum playstyle once celestalon and team actually find and fix all animation cancelling if u havent seen his tweet

[Vanyali]

what do u guys think will happen to momentum playstyle once celestalon and team actually find and fix all animation cancelling if u havent seen his tweet

Nothing.

That's only required in the sense that it lets you not have to think about anything at all other than tunneling - momentum is 100% viable without it, and only gets better on raid bosses as they're bigger.

[Donovan4893]

I just want them to fix Fel blade to always charge or something so you dont have to wait after VR to Fel Blade or it will do damage but keep you going backwards if its even possible to fix.

[Vanyali]

I just want them to fix Fel blade to always charge or something so you dont have to wait after VR to Fel Blade or it will do damage but keep you going backwards if its even possible to fix.

If they do that, you can't use it on any target that can't be charged, ever. Naraxxas, Helya, Serptentix, Wrath of Azshara, Krosus...

Some of those are bugged with the current function already, to be sure, but most arent'.

[chematus]

Is it me or does DB generate lower amounts of fury now?

[Deleted]

i am confused.


you do not want to use metamorphosis with heroism?

[FinestHour]

gcd already reduced so haste kinda wasted

[Vanyali]

i am confused.


you do not want to use metamorphosis with heroism?

you're at the floor with meta, so the haste from it is wasted.