Thrall and orc blood-lust.

[TheDestinatus]

Garrosh became evil, but was not so innately. He allowed bloodlust to consume him.
The image mistake has been pointed out and I've offered other evidence.

He didn't become evil, he was a warmonger from the moment he was born. Thrall told him stories about daddy Hellscream and Garrosh wanted to follow in the footsteps of his father. No prompting, he literally had the most pacifist Orc to learn from, Thrall, and he still preferred conquest. Its in their nature to kill.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Garrosh became evil, but was not so innately. He allowed bloodlust to consume him.
The image mistake has been pointed out and I've offered other evidence.

Other evidence to what? You are wrong, regardless. Tanaan has jungles. Most of Draenor is habitable. You're mixing up AU Draenor and MU Draenor.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Whats the source the information, a novel no doubt. As far as the game was concerned the planet was a swamp with mushrooms instead of trees prior to its destruction. The WoD reference to mushrooms is another "reason" story for why things are the way they are, the mushrooms grew in swampy areas such as Zangermarsh and the marsh areas you see in WoD. Doesn't sound like a dust bowl to me. At this point its irrelevant anyway, they've redesigned the planet twice now and overall its just getting worse. Pretty in WoD, but so not like its supposed to be.

I'm also assuming novel but can't be sure. Either way the original point is that a wrecked Draenor and orcs in need of new land is not new to the movie, that part at least is established canon, with the WC2 representation retconned somewhere along the line. Was Hellfire ever visited? Maybe that part was that way all along and we never saw it?

[Traveler Voltin]

Genocide is only bad when Orcs do it. When the Alliance races do it to the Trolls its perfectly justifiable.

double standards.
dont forget night elves caused war of the ancients.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Other evidence to what? You are wrong, regardless. Tanaan has jungles. Most of Draenor is habitable. You're mixing up AU Draenor and MU Draenor.

Wowpedia describes Draenor as wrecked and the orcs in need of a new home. The dispute here was whether a dead Draenor was movie canon or not.

As I'm understanding it the Jungle of Tanaan in MU was destroyed by Fel magic and left the barren wasteland we see today.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

double standards.
dont forget a select few night elves caused war of the ancients.

Not double standards at all...

[TheDestinatus]

I'm also assuming novel but can't be sure. Either way the original point is that a wrecked Draenor and orcs in need of new land is not new to the movie, that part at least is established canon, with the WC2 representation retconned somewhere along the line. Was Hellfire ever visited? Maybe that part was that way all along and we never saw it?

Hellfire was visited in WC2 (mushroom swamp), WC3 (mushroom desert), TBC (desert) and WoD (jungle). The many iterations of the same thing, all it does is show you that new designers don't honor the past properly. I mean you could maybe let the TBC version slide because of how desolate hellfire had become at that point but the Mushrooms were there when Illidan first went to outland so they have no excuse.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Wowpedia describes Draenor as wrecked and the orcs in need of a new home. The dispute here was whether a dead Draenor was movie canon or not.

Technically parts of the continent the Orcs live don would have been... but that was after the MU Orcs willingly drank demon blood, forsook their spirits and chose warlock magic etc etc etc. The entire planet likely wouldn;t have been "dead." Since you know, even Outlands has multiple zones with plants and animals thriving. Its just a bullshit excuse, like trying to say its okay for the US to invade people for oil. 'But we totally need it!"

[TheDestinatus]

double standards.
dont forget night elves caused war of the ancients.

I don't, the Blood Elves/High Elves are just as bad as the Orcs. The highborne as just as accountable for working with the Burning Legion as the Orcs are.

- - - Updated - - -

Technically parts of the continent the Orcs live don would have been... but that was after the MU Orcs willingly drank demon blood, forsook their spirits and chose warlock magic etc etc etc. The entire planet likely wouldn;t have been "dead." Since you know, even Outlands has multiple zones with plants and animals thriving. Its just a bullshit excuse, like trying to say its okay for the US to invade people for oil. 'But we totally need it!"

Exactly, this is why I loathe the movie. I just knew people were going to make it THE story and ignore the actual story.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

He didn't become evil, he was a warmonger from the moment he was born. Thrall told him stories about daddy Hellscream and Garrosh wanted to follow in the footsteps of his father. No prompting, he literally had the most pacifist Orc to learn from, Thrall, and he still preferred conquest. Its in their nature to kill.

They're in a proud culture where strength and honour is valued above all else. He was thrown onto the battlefield and his race insulted by a faction he had no reason to quarrel with other than their evident hatred towards him and his people, the warmongering was as much down to the alliance as him.
There's a strong case that Garrosh was a victim of circumstance for all the events following the Cataclysm. He probably had a point when he told Thrall "You made me what I am."

- - - Updated - - -

Technically parts of the continent the Orcs live don would have been... but that was after the MU Orcs willingly drank demon blood, forsook their spirits and chose warlock magic etc etc etc. The entire planet likely wouldn;t have been "dead." Since you know, even Outlands has multiple zones with plants and animals thriving. Its just a bullshit excuse, like trying to say its okay for the US to invade people for oil. 'But we totally need it!"

I'm not justifying it. They invaded fueled with demon blood, willing to kill anything that stood in their way, but Draenor was very much a mess, and Azeroth a far more appealing concept. My contention has been that it's not new canon to the movie.

[TheDestinatus]

They're in a proud culture where strength and honour is valued above all else. He was thrown onto the battlefield and his race insulted by a faction he had no reason to quarrel with other than their evident hatred towards him and his people, the warmongering was as much down to the alliance as him.
There's a strong case that Garrosh was a victim of circumstance for all the events following the Cataclysm. He probably had a point when he told Thrall "You made me what I am."

What case would that be, he wanted to fight the Alliance even before he was Warchief. Look at all his actions in WotLK, he wanted to attack the Alliance in Icecrown, him trying to start fights in the Colosseum.

- - - Updated - - -

They're in a proud culture where strength and honour is valued above all else. He was thrown onto the battlefield and his race insulted by a faction he had no reason to quarrel with other than their evident hatred towards him and his people, the warmongering was as much down to the alliance as him.
There's a strong case that Garrosh was a victim of circumstance for all the events following the Cataclysm. He probably had a point when he told Thrall "You made me what I am."

- - - Updated - - -



I'm not justifying it. They invaded fueled with demon blood, willing to kill anything that stood in their way, but Draenor was very much a mess, and Azeroth a far more appealing concept. My contention has been that it's not new canon to the movie.

They invaded without demonic influence, how do you think the WoD portal opened in the first place? Have you been to Nethergarde recently?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

What case would that be, he wanted to fight the Alliance even before he was Warchief. Look at all his actions in WotLK, him wanted to attack the Alliance in Icecrown, him trying to start fights in the Colosseum.

He wanted to attack because they summoned a Demon, and orcs have history with demons. It looked like a blatant attack. Varian wanted the fight just as much.

- - - Updated - - -

They invaded without demonic influence, how do you think the WoD portal opened in the first place? Have you been to Nethergarde recently?

Warlords leads to way too much confusion in this thread.
Garrosh was off the rails by the end of MoP. I was referring to the First War.

[TheDestinatus]

He wanted to attack because they summoned a Demon, and orcs have history with demons. It looked like a blatant attack. Varian wanted the fight just as much.

- - - Updated - - -



Warlords leads to way too much confusion in this thread.
Garrosh was off the rails by the end of MoP. I was referring to the First War.

Garrosh didn't destroy Nethergarde on his own, the Orcs opened the portal without demonic influence and than proceeded to restart the war yet again. It doesn't matter when it happened, Garrosh and the uncorrupted Orcs proceeded to follow in their demonic brethrens footsteps because in the end the demons blood is not the reason for their actions, its their own lust for power.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Garrosh didn't destroy Nethergarde on his own, the Orcs opened the portal without demonic influence and than proceeded to restart the war yet again. It doesn't matter when it happened, Garrosh and the uncorrupted Orcs proceeded to follow in their demonic brethrens footsteps because in the end the demons blood is not the reason for their actions, its their own lust for power.

The Iron Horde followed its leaders. These leaders are already known to be corruptible. Grommash was the first to drink the blood, Killrogg the first in AU, and Kargath comes from a clan of madmen. Ner'zhul lost his mind to the Void, as he was weak minded, as in MU. Mob mentality shouldn't be underestimated here either.
It's worth noting also the Frostwolves, who are also orcs but did not join at the first sign of a war, again under the guidance of a leader who opposed it. #NotAllOrcs I guess?

[TheDestinatus]

The Iron Horde followed its leaders. These leaders are already known to be corruptible. Grommash was the first to drink the blood, Killrogg the first in AU, and Kargath comes from a clan of madmen. Ner'zhul lost his mind to the Void, as he was weak minded, as in MU. Mob mentality shouldn't be underestimated here either.
It's worth noting also the Frostwolves, who are also orcs but did not join at the first sign of a war, again under the guidance of a leader who opposed it. #NotAllOrcs I guess?

They didn't drink, they did kill Humans. We are going in circles now. You're not introducing anything new into the conversation anymore.

[Shaqthefat]

Until the orcs drank the demon blood they lived relatively peaceful alongside the Draenei. They didn't even really do anything together. While orcs do enjoy combat they aren't born to bathe nations in blood. They were turned into a weapon to do that, but orcs say one hundred years before the Burning Legion corrupted the Orcs they wouldn't have razed a kingdom just to raze a kingdom. I'm not saying orcs are innocent and that what orcs did past their freedom from the Burning Legion makes them go back to the way they were. Garrosh was ashamed of his name until Thrall told him of his fathers sacrifice to his people which set Garrosh on his path. Garrosh wasn't evil until MoP when he become a tool of Y'Shaarj. In reality every race if guilty of some sort of crime, but Tauren where the only group to cause a problem is the Grimtotem and the ones that join the Twilights Hammer.

Orcs: MoP, Theramore, Stonetalon Mountains

Human: Death camps, Taurajo, and the purging of Malarian

Night Elves: War of Ancients

Gnomes: Leper Gnomes

Dwarfs: War of Three Hammers, The dark irons have been a repeated problem

Trolls: Zul'Aman, Hakkar, MoP, attack the blood elves

Blood Elves: Kael'Thas giving the Sunwell to the legion

Forsaken: Don't really need to go into this one.....

Goblins: Venture CO, Selling their people into slavery

Draenei: Bringing the Legion to every planet they touch. The draenei being on your planet to a ticking time bomb for when the Legion shows up.

Worgen: Scythe of Elune, Gilnease, Things Greymane does in Legion

Pandaren: Letting Garrosh do mining operations within the Vale, ineffectively preparing their people for the Sha, and bailing out on the rest of the world in the War of the Ancients

Point is every race has done something that has really messed up how things are going. Doesn't mean they are evil by default. Please find a situation that doesn't involve an accident, clan tradition, and manipulation before you accuse an entire race of being born evil.

[Sci Fi Samurai]

Been awhile since I read anything about it, but I vaguely recall orcs, ogres, and (I think?) ogron were all born from the blood of a dead god that seeped into the soil, and each had violent tendencies. It's basically amped instinct for them, and like any instinct it exists and varying amounts between individuals. Orcs seem fairly well tied to their lands though, so personally I think that may help with their shamanistic connections, but I wonder if maybe it influences their behaviors in ways that may be unusual for creatures like humans and elves. The nature-nurture tug of war in behavior might be less either/or and more both/and.

Frost Wolves and Shadowmoon orcs seem comparatively more chill than say the Laughing Skull, who live in that crazy ass carnivorous jungle. Black Rock, who also seem very aggressive, are also very imperious and uncompromising, living near the Laughing Skull but in the the badlands area which is very unforgiving. The Warsong and Burning Blade live in the planes of Nagrand, and while both are very aggressive they each have a rigorous code based on strength of body and will. It's like they ride the calm before the storm, and then deliver the storm when it's time.

That's just a random theory I got from casual observation, but nothing I'd assert. So far as I can tell Blizz hasn't said anything about that. I didn't really know much about the Thunderlords other than that they didn't like the Frost Wolves even before WoD, but it did seem that their aggressive behavior was regarded as unusual. I vaguely recall they were trying to prove themselves to the Iron Horde.

Another thing I do recall from WC3 and early WoW were those orcs in the slave camps, and how they were described as depressed and aimless without something to push against. I do get the sense that conflict is in their nature, and that orcs may be blood thirsty but that they are also at their best when they have to struggle. I was also under the impression that this quality is what drew the legion's attention to them in the first place.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

They didn't drink, they did kill Humans. We are going in circles now. You're not introducing anything new into the conversation anymore.

My argument is that they followed flawed leaders but weren't necessarily flawed innately, as seen in the case of the Frostwolves.

[Durgtok]

Until the orcs drank the demon blood they lived relatively peaceful alongside the Draenei. They didn't even really do anything together. While orcs do enjoy combat they aren't born to bathe nations in blood. They were turned into a weapon to do that, but orcs say one hundred years before the Burning Legion corrupted the Orcs they wouldn't have razed a kingdom just to raze a kingdom. I'm not saying orcs are innocent and that what orcs did past their freedom from the Burning Legion makes them go back to the way they were. Garrosh was ashamed of his name until Thrall told him of his fathers sacrifice to his people which set Garrosh on his path. Garrosh wasn't evil until MoP when he become a tool of Y'Shaarj. In reality every race if guilty of some sort of crime, but Tauren where the only group to cause a problem is the Grimtotem and the ones that join the Twilights Hammer.

Orcs: MoP, Theramore, Stonetalon Mountains

Human: Death camps, Taurajo, and the purging of Malarian

Night Elves: War of Ancients

Gnomes: Leper Gnomes

Dwarfs: War of Three Hammers, The dark irons have been a repeated problem

Trolls: Zul'Aman, Hakkar, MoP, attack the blood elves

Blood Elves: Kael'Thas giving the Sunwell to the legion

Forsaken: Don't really need to go into this one.....

Goblins: Venture CO, Selling their people into slavery

Draenei: Bringing the Legion to every planet they touch. The draenei being on your planet to a ticking time bomb for when the Legion shows up.

Worgen: Scythe of Elune, Gilnease, Things Greymane does in Legion

Pandaren: Letting Garrosh do mining operations within the Vale, ineffectively preparing their people for the Sha, and bailing out on the rest of the world in the War of the Ancients

Point is every race has done something that has really messed up how things are going. Doesn't mean they are evil by default. Please find a situation that doesn't involve an accident, clan tradition, and manipulation before you accuse an entire race of being born evil.

This. This 100%. This ends the thread, IMO. Nothing more needs to be said. Every race has some evil bastards, along with some good fellows. Just like in real life.

[TheDestinatus]

Until the orcs drank the demon blood they lived relatively peaceful alongside the Draenei. They didn't even really do anything together. While orcs do enjoy combat they aren't born to bathe nations in blood. They were turned into a weapon to do that, but orcs say one hundred years before the Burning Legion corrupted the Orcs they wouldn't have razed a kingdom just to raze a kingdom. I'm not saying orcs are innocent and that what orcs did past their freedom from the Burning Legion makes them go back to the way they were. Garrosh was ashamed of his name until Thrall told him of his fathers sacrifice to his people which set Garrosh on his path. Garrosh wasn't evil until MoP when he become a tool of Y'Shaarj. In reality every race if guilty of some sort of crime, but Tauren where the only group to cause a problem is the Grimtotem and the ones that join the Twilights Hammer.

Orcs: MoP, Theramore, Stonetalon Mountains

Human: Death camps, Taurajo, and the purging of Malarian

Night Elves: War of Ancients

Gnomes: Leper Gnomes

Dwarfs: War of Three Hammers, The dark irons have been a repeated problem

Trolls: Zul'Aman, Hakkar, MoP, attack the blood elves

Blood Elves: Kael'Thas giving the Sunwell to the legion

Forsaken: Don't really need to go into this one.....

Goblins: Venture CO, Selling their people into slavery

Draenei: Bringing the Legion to every planet they touch. The draenei being on your planet to a ticking time bomb for when the Legion shows up.

Worgen: Scythe of Elune, Gilnease, Things Greymane does in Legion

Pandaren: Letting Garrosh do mining operations within the Vale, ineffectively preparing their people for the Sha, and bailing out on the rest of the world in the War of the Ancients

Point is every race has done something that has really messed up how things are going. Doesn't mean they are evil by default. Please find a situation that doesn't involve an accident, clan tradition, and manipulation before you accuse an entire race of being born evil.

Your version of bad is so hilarious. Orcs: Invasion of Azeroth, destruction of Stormwind, destruction of Stromgarde, destruction of Tol Barad, destruction of Dalaran, destruction of Stratholme, destruction of Nethergarde, enslavement of Alexstrasza, attacking Quel'thalas borderlands, perversion of Human knights to create Death Knights, destruction of Karabor, destruction of Shattrath and the list goes on and on and on. Remember that time the Humans put the Orcs into PRISON camps, yeah thats totally on the level.