BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Noradin]

It's AA, which is two steps down from AAA. So not 'better'.

I know, but notice how they just tell reades that it is worse and let them assume it dropped just one step?

[Elegiac]

I think it's worth pointing out too, if nothing else, we now have a shining example of the stupidity of referendums.

I think the 2000 Australian Republican referendum and Prop 8 already proved that, but meh.

May the West remember this harsh lesson for some time. The Far right and Far left are abusing plebiscites to advance their tiny minority agendas by weaponizing democracy and injecting lies to win these votes.

Silver lining from France is that Le Pen asked Hollande for a referendum of Frances own on Friday, and he said 'no' right to her face.

Say what you will, but Hollande has some respectable attributes.

[Deleted]

Choosing to take back control of our own affairs is undemocratic and holding the world hostage? Strange one that

You didn't took back the control, you simply lost the influence power over the rest of Europe.

[Triks]

I think it's worth pointing out too, if nothing else, we now have a shining example of the stupidity of referendums.

May the West remember this harsh lesson for some time. The Far right and Far left are abusing plebiscites to advance their tiny minority agendas by weaponizing democracy and injecting lies to win these votes.

Silver lining from France is that Le Pen asked Hollande for a referendum of Frances own on Friday, and he said 'no' right to her face.

Again a piece of experience from us dumb Eastern Europeans - the far left and far right have EXACTLY THE SAME electorate and goals. The only difference is who they blame for their problems.

[Teebone]

Again a piece of experience from us dumb Eastern Europeans - the far left and far right have EXACTLY THE SAME electorate and goals. The only difference is who they blame for their problems.

I wish Americans would learn this, but alas we have to have our new 'industry' of politics.

[ati87]

I'm from Northern Ireland and we voted to remain. Maybe because we have a border. The only proper party here that went Leave was DUP and they've never been the most tolerant of anyone different. But the last few days have had me thinking along the lines of

Be careful what you wish for
Turkeys voting for Christmas

and more recently something my mother used to say when i was little and wanted to do something someone else told me to do

If they told you to stick your hand in the fire would you do it.
As I see it the other person is the leave campaign and the Government is me.

no way the Government should do something disastrous just because 52% of voters said something in a non binding referendum.

if it only affected them and not the rest of the population (includes those who voted remain, those who didn't vote and worst of all those not allowed to vote - seriously 16 yo are old enough to legally have sex and not allowed to vote) I'd say screw them. You made your bed, enjoy it.

It should never have been a straight winner takes all referendum and it should have been mandatory to vote. Though I do believe there should never have been a referendum. Something this important to the wellbeing of a nation cannot be left to the public as an average voter just doesn't have the knowledge to make an informed choice about such matters (and I include myself there even though I know more about the EU and Government than practically everyone else I know)

My sister had an issue with immigration but she had no idea about Shengen(sp?) or why the camp was in Calais and not UK. And leave played on that fear and it's only after the result that they've said immigration probably won't change. Plus, I may be wrong, but I recall about 50% of UK immigration is from outside EU anyway.

I hate this argument about not knowing.

Every argument the Brexit side used was bloody debunked by a dozen or so in-depended parties from every side of the world and every time it was attacked as fear mongering.

And what happens the day after, the Brexit side has acknowledged that every talking point was fake and there promises probably won't happen.

[Tinch]

I give up on this thread. Like I said the utter contempt that is being shown towards democracy and the will of the people is genuinely terrifying. Feels like I'm in 1984.

[TheTaurenOrc]

His actions where pure out self interest and his campaigning was lackluster as best, the few times I saw 1 of his ''stay'' speeches you almost thought he was making a case for leave.

It was actually how bad the Remain campaign was that turned me off to European Union. The overall sentiment was 'this is our lot and be happy with it'. No plan, no hope for anything better, not even singing the praises of the Union.

We're not sending them $350m a week! After rebates and what we would pay otherwise its more like $147m a week. Thanks that's very reassuring Meanwhile we just cut your benefits 6 months ago. What did they think was going to happen?

[Elegiac]

I'm also going to say this, and I think Skroe will back me up.

If there's such a clear popular mandate for Brexit and a huge 'grassroots' movement for European secession, then you lot would have elected a government with the balls to carry it out and not pussyfoot tossing around the premiership in an effort to fob off the responsibility onto someone else. The fact that all UKIP managed to achieve was a few MEP seats in elections with pathetic turnouts shows Brexit has, in essence, feet of clay.

[Triks]

I give up on this thread. Like I said the utter contempt that is being shown towards democracy and the will of the people is genuinely terrifying. Feels like I'm in 1984.

The price of the GBP reflects it

Take care.

[Elegiac]

I give up on this thread. Like I said the utter contempt that is being shown towards democracy and the will of the people is genuinely terrifying. Feels like I'm in 1984.

Nineteen Eighty Four, and no - Orwell was fairly explicit in his description of the general public as being willing to acquiesce to the whims of their leaders, which is a criticism of democracy in of itself.

[Skroe]

Again a piece of experience from us dumb Eastern Europeans - the far left and far right have EXACTLY THE SAME electorate and goals. The only difference is who they blame for their problems.

Yeah I think that's becoming very evident, across the entire Western world. Even in the US the commonality between some of Donald Trump (or less randomly crazy, Rand Paul) and Bernie Sanders is evidence of that.

And Jeremy Corbyn... he said publicly he voted to Remain. I got the sneaking suspicion he is lying through teeth. Just a thought, but since when does a life long hyper-ideological Socialist backbencher who is all about nationalizing everything believe in keeping his country inside one of the world's great achievements in neoliberal capitalism.

The center right and center left need to mobilize their superior numbers and power and start stepping on extremist bugs before we get more SYRIZAs, more PODEMOS, more Jeremy Corbyns, more Bernie Sanders, more UKIPs, more Donald Trumps, more National Fronts, more US Tea Partys.

[Noradin]

I give up on this thread. Like I said the utter contempt that is being shown towards democracy and the will of the people is genuinely terrifying. Feels like I'm in 1984.

Are you speaking of yourself?
You are aware that you are the one showing contempt for democracy and the will of the people, aren't you?

[Deleted]

I give up on this thread. Like I said the utter contempt that is being shown towards democracy and the will of the people is genuinely terrifying. Feels like I'm in 1984.

No one is telling you that democracy is wrong, but there are consequences of such irrational decisions. Just look at your Leave leadership, if you manage to find them.

[Triks]

I wish Americans would learn this, but alas we have to have our new 'industry' of politics.

Heh, two wars, a world war, tzarist terror and then 40 years of communism tend to teach you a thing or two about politics, economics and foreign policy.

[Deleted]

The center right and center left need to mobilize their superior numbers and power and start stepping on extremist bugs before we get more SYRIZAs, more PODEMOS, more Jeremy Corbyns, more Bernie Sanders, more UKIPs, more Donald Trumps, more National Fronts, more US Tea Partys.

PODEMOS was crushed yesterday.

[Noradin]

And Jeremy Corbyn... he said publicly he voted to Remain. I got the sneaking suspicion he is lying through teeth. Just a thought, but since when does a life long hyper-ideological Socialist backbencher who is all about nationalizing everything believe in keeping his country inside one of the world's great achievements in neoliberal capitalism.

It does not matter what he voted in private, he has one vote just as everyone else, and nobody should disclose what they wrote down on their ballot paper anyway.
What does matter is whether people trush him, and if his arguments are convincing and truthful.

[Tinch]

Are you speaking of yourself?
You are aware that you are the one showing contempt for democracy and the will of the people, aren't you?

By respecting a referendum result? K then.

If we would have voted for remain I would've accepted the result, not asked for a vote again and again until I got the decision I wanted

[Elegiac]

By respecting a referendum result? K then.

If we would have voted for remain I would've accepted the result, not asked for a vote again and again until I got the decision I wanted

This isn't about the 'results' of the referendum. This is about the fact it was conducted in the first place, and how poorly it was conducted.

Again, why do you even need a referendum? If 'the electorate' wanted this so much, why are Cameron and the rest of them so eager to -not- be the one to invoke Article 50?

I'll tell you why. Because fucking around as a working class Mancunian doesn't show you the actual numbers related to Brexit, which Cameron and the others can clearly see.

[Tinch]

No one is telling you that democracy is wrong, but there are consequences of such irrational decisions. Just look at your Leave leadership, if you manage to find them.

We know there are consequences. Everybody knew the economy would suffer short to medium term, this vote was about more than that