Reduced Zoom in Legion

[wing5wong]

It's as stated. If you can't control the further out camera you're free to be more zoomed in, but for others it's extremely helpful to get field coverage particularly from melee/tank spots.

It's the people who do adapt to environments with their camera who are hurt by this, not people incapable of doing so. If you don't consider the camera an advantage you are obviously NOT the target for this change - as Watcher himself explicitly stated it as an advantage that is considered 'unfair'.

I really cant tell if you are joking or not.
Control my camera better further out? As if being more zoomed out has somehow made you more skillful? You make it sound as if i sit here and never move my camera.
Please.
You realise i currently play all max lvl content WITH the extra distance macro, and NEVER need to zoom that far. ever.

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Lets dump so more

http://imgur.com/a/dcJhQ

Yup, those are a bit of an isuse, which is why im for an increase, but not to the extent of the current max.

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Well by saying you don't 'need' it is the same as saying you don't 'need' many things that are considered required in raids - you are downplaying the advantage yourself.

Calling it a crutch is like calling gear a crutch, or addons in general a crutch, etc. It's a ridiculous childish argument that goes nowhere. You've clearly stated your preference & your own difficulty using the camera so it's natural you may feel dislike to those who do use it effectively.

Its nothing to do with difficulty using the camera. its that the camera literally can not even get to max distance in many of these places without clipping something first

[Pengalor]

Well by saying you don't 'need' it is the same as saying you don't 'need' many things that are considered required in raids - you are downplaying the advantage yourself.

Calling it a crutch is like calling gear a crutch, or addons in general a crutch, etc. It's a ridiculous childish argument that goes nowhere. You've clearly stated your preference & your own difficulty using the camera so it's natural you may feel dislike to those who do use it effectively.

Uwot. It's obviously not required in raids so no, it's not the same...like, at all. You're being completely disingenuous. I'm also not downplaying the advantage, I'm simply stating that you don't need it at all, it doesn't make or break the game. It's still an advantage, it's just one that people seem to think is more necessary than it actually is. And yes, it is a crutch. And no, it's no the same as calling gear a crutch (more disingenuous arguments). By the way, you can piss off with the patronizing armchair psychology, if anything is childish here it's that. I don't 'dislike' anyone using the maxed camera, what I dislike is the forums being flooded with ridiculous bullshit and hyperbole about something that really isn't a major issue (almost as bad as all the Nostalrius spam).

[Fabinas]

IT IS an advantage. IT IS NOT UNFAIR, though, because anyone could do it. Plus, Blizz reps in official forums even directed at that.

What is a major issue is that we are getting a change, which is not only adequately explained, but it is straight bullshit in our face, with hidden reasons for their decision.

It's their game, they can change whatever they want, but when they go and straight lie to us for the reasons, not only we will call bulshit, but we will demand for the change to be reverted.

It's a similar situation with the flying fiasco. Their stance started from "flying at 6.1 with epic quest involved" to "we will see, still discussing whether we will give flying and when" to "no flying, cause design reasons" to "flying with achievement on a later patch". They tried to bullshit us advertising flying for WoD (giving a flying mount on the deluxe editions) and to PR retract what they promised. We will not take bullshit from Blizzard again. They lost their credibility and they will not receive the benefit of a doubt from me (and i suspect, many others).

On the other hand, if they want to come straight and explain the actual reasons for reducing max camera we can discuss again at that base.

[Tazflyr]

People are missing the biggest issue here----for some folks, this is a quality of life problem. Being zoomed in causes many people to experience dizziness, nausea and headaches....similar to car sickness or strobe lighting. It would be a shame to have to stop playing a game you've enjoyed for over 8 years simply bc Blizzard removed something that has been there from the start.

[Raiju]

I really cant tell if you are joking or not.
Control my camera better further out? As if being more zoomed out has somehow made you more skillful? You make it sound as if i sit here and never move my camera.
Please.
You realise i currently play all max lvl content WITH the extra distance macro, and NEVER need to zoom that far. ever.

I've seen plenty people in top 100 guilds who are disgrace and survive at that level largely by being 'just a body', so no I'm not surprised you can. Also as mentioned this is more severe for melee which you evidently don't play.

Its nothing to do with difficulty using the camera. its that the camera literally can not even get to max distance in many of these places without clipping something first

Ah yes all that clipping in HFC... wait... no very fight fights restrict your camera - as is normal in raids.

I will point out to you both for hte third time it's not about NEED it's about IMPROVED GAMEPLAY. You 2 are stating because you get your camera caught god knows where (which is why it's a skill issue) that you don't use it. Therefore, it should be nerfed for everyone? Fantastic ability to see others points there.

Why am I bothering. You 2 haven't scraped together an informed arugment between you yet. It's just parroting nonsense.
@Pengalor maybe.. just MAYBE this is a bigger issue to others than it is to you. I mean that should be obvious from the get-go given once again you said yourself you had issues with the extended camera anyway.

[Pengalor]

IT IS an advantage. IT IS NOT UNFAIR, though, because anyone could do it. Plus, Blizz reps in official forums even directed at that.

Actually, it absolutely is unfair if it's not part of the UI because there's no way most people will even know about it. However, they could certainly extend the view in the UI. I think they are worried that it would be like a requirement to play at that zoom regardless of whether you like it or not.

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People are missing the biggest issue here----for some folks, this is a quality of life problem. Being zoomed in causes many people to experience dizziness, nausea and headaches....similar to car sickness or strobe lighting. It would be a shame to have to stop playing a game you've enjoyed for over 8 years simply bc Blizzard removed something that has been there from the start.

Those cases are exceedingly rare. I should know, I can't play any FPS with a field of view lower than 90 for more than half an hour before I start getting headaches. However, Blizzard have to draw the line somewhere and some of those people are always going to get left behind.

[Raiju]

@Pengalor argument has no basis. People use completely different UI's, bindings, and none of it is seen as required. It's only a requirement if they fail - at which point they will naturally prefer the further out camera (and only when they feel they need it) due to positive reinforcement.

[Pengalor]

I've seen plenty people in top 100 guilds who are disgrace and survive at that level largely by being 'just a body', so no I'm not surprised you can. Also as mentioned this is more severe for melee which you evidently don't play.



Ah yes all that clipping in HFC... wait... no very fight fights restrict your camera - as is normal in raids.

I will point out to you both for hte third time it's not about NEED it's about IMPROVED GAMEPLAY. You 2 are stating because you get your camera caught god knows where (which is why it's a skill issue) that you don't use it. Therefore, it should be nerfed for everyone? Fantastic ability to see others points there.

Why am I bothering. You 2 haven't scraped together an informed arugment between you yet. It's just parroting nonsense.
@Pengalor maybe.. just MAYBE this is a bigger issue to others than it is to you. I mean that should be obvious from the get-go given once again you said yourself you had issues with the extended camera anyway.

Lol, this is getting pathetic, you're just mindlessly lashing out because people disagree, which is ironic considering you're accusing others of being unable to see the other side. That's the difference: I see the other side, I just observe that a lot of it is hyperbolic because they think that somehow makes their argument more convincing. But no, just keep pretending everyone who disagrees is just 'uninformed' and throwing things out of the pram.

[Raiju]

Watcher made good arguments for the reduced camera, you have not. That's the difference when you pretend you're defending some other side by going 'WELL I NEVER LIKED IT ANYWAY'

[Pengalor]

@Pengalor argument has no basis. People use completely different UI's, bindings, and none of it is seen as required. It's only a requirement if they fail - at which point they will naturally prefer the further out camera (and only when they feel they need it) due to positive reinforcement.

You gonna tell me clicking isn't frowned upon? Or raiding without DBM?

[wing5wong]

I've seen plenty people in top 100 guilds who are disgrace and survive at that level largely by being 'just a body', so no I'm not surprised you can. Also as mentioned this is more severe for melee which you evidently don't play.



Ah yes all that clipping in HFC... wait... no very fight fights restrict your camera - as is normal in raids.

I will point out to you both for hte third time it's not about NEED it's about IMPROVED GAMEPLAY. You 2 are stating because you get your camera caught god knows where (which is why it's a skill issue) that you don't use it. Therefore, it should be nerfed for everyone? Fantastic ability to see others points there.

Why am I bothering. You 2 haven't scraped together an informed arugment between you yet. It's just parroting nonsense.
@Pengalor maybe.. just MAYBE this is a bigger issue to others than it is to you. I mean that should be obvious from the get-go given once again you said yourself you had issues with the extended camera anyway.

Ohhh I get it! Its about flying, right!

The shit you need to see as melee is still there. You can still dodge the fire. You can still dodge the cone attack.
You can still uhh, control your camera with ridiculous skill and see the ranged group 40 yards behind you.

The issue is not that the camera gets 'caught'. It just flat out doesnt go back 50 yards in many locations (instanced).
You can avoid it by playing top down RTS WoW, but is that what they want? is that what YOU want?

[Pengalor]

Watcher made good arguments for the reduced camera, you have not. That's the difference when you pretend you're defending some other side by going 'WELL I NEVER LIKED IT ANYWAY'

If you want to pretend that's my argument then you go right ahead lol.

[Raiju]

clicking is only frowned upon WHEN YOU FAIL for doing it. I click and have continuously amazed people by outperforming them, and noone has an issue with it as a result. Many raid without addons as they're a crutch just hte same that are not required but not something we ban because others find them helpful. Very very few abilities (over the entirety of the game) have required a mod to execute.
@wing5wong I want camera flexibility as a raid leader, yes. I imagine nearly all leaders do.

It's true. Hell, as a hunter I have problems with the camera at the default max UI level because shit in the ceiling gets in the way and I end up shooting a trap behind me and 20 feet above my head. There really is no major need for such a massive zoom in instanced content.

^ your argument, if you forgot.

[Deleted]

Watcher made good arguments for the reduced camera, you have not. That's the difference when you pretend you're defending some other side by going 'WELL I NEVER LIKED IT ANYWAY'

What were those good arguments? I'm genuinely curious.

[wing5wong]

I click and have continuously amazed people by outperforming them

I stopped right there.

[Fabinas]

Actually, it absolutely is unfair if it's not part of the UI because there's no way most people will even know about it. However, they could certainly extend the view in the UI. I think they are worried that it would be like a requirement to play at that zoom regardless of whether you like it or not.

It can't be unfair when it is info readily available on the internet RELAYED BY EVEN BLIZZARD on official forums. It would be unfair if people realised they would need a bigger perspective at a certain moment and they couldn't get it, except by hacking. You can't expect all the advanced options inside a game. If a situation arose that a player wanted a bigger camera distance, google ffs. I did, many others did, we didn't get this info from exploit sites, but from legitimate sites like Wowwiki and its successors, fan sites etc.

Let me give you another (similar) example. Blizzard removed the /follow command in PvP instances to stop bots from using it. Actually, if you right click a player in a BG you still get the "follow" option, only when you click it, it says something like "this can't be done in a battleground". Follow existed there for years, yet the complaints weren't even a millionth as for this change. Because their reason to do this was legitimate.

This one isn't. There's no unfair advanatage to enlarging the max distance camera. ANYONE can do it. Not being as an option in the game does not make it a cheat. It's not like typing /godmode. It's a damn visual setting which you can use or not.

Macros are not in the game. LUA scripts are not in the game. You have to go OUTSIDE OF IT to read how you can write one (syntax, parameters, commands etc.). Are they unfair advantages as well?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Have you lost your mind, suggesting taking away DBM. Thats the same as going full retard (PC police no offense). And we all know what happens when you go full retard. ........................... YOU NEVER COME BACK.

??? lol ~ I was using the comparison to DBM as an example of how silly their change to max zoom was. Both are equally in use by competitive raiders. You can argue that neither are essential, but both are quite popular. There are casual players who don't use either, but competitive guilds know about both.

[Deleted]

I've seen plenty people in top 100 guilds who are disgrace and survive at that level largely by being 'just a body', so no I'm not surprised you can. Also as mentioned this is more severe for melee which you evidently don't play.



Ah yes all that clipping in HFC... wait... no very fight fights restrict your camera - as is normal in raids.

I will point out to you both for hte third time it's not about NEED it's about IMPROVED GAMEPLAY. You 2 are stating because you get your camera caught god knows where (which is why it's a skill issue) that you don't use it. Therefore, it should be nerfed for everyone? Fantastic ability to see others points there.

Why am I bothering. You 2 haven't scraped together an informed arugment between you yet. It's just parroting nonsense.
@Pengalor maybe.. just MAYBE this is a bigger issue to others than it is to you. I mean that should be obvious from the get-go given once again you said yourself you had issues with the extended camera anyway.

I play a warrior DPS, melee, I clear mythic, and I just use the standard wow ui zoom. There is no "you play better by being zoomed out that far" it's a matter of preference. I don't see it as a "need" or "improved gameplay". My point is that regardless how far you are zoomed in/out it won't make you a better player. It's a preference to playstyle (similar to how people use different keybinds, no set of keybinds will make you a better player).

[Pengalor]

clicking is only frowned upon WHEN YOU FAIL for doing it. I click and have continuously amazed people by outperforming them, and noone has an issue with it as a result. Many raid without addons as they're a crutch just hte same that are not required but not something we ban because others find them helpful. Very very few abilities (over the entirety of the game) have required a mod to execute.
@wing5wong I want camera flexibility as a raid leader, yes. I imagine nearly all leaders do.



^ your argument, if you forgot.

Are you saying you're a raid leader? Because if so then it's obvious they don't frown on clicking, can't really talk shit to the boss...Also, if you're outperforming people while clicking that probably says a lot about your raid group....

And yes, I remember what I typed. The problem isn't me here, it's your interpretation of what I said. Honestly, you seem like you're way too attached to this topic.

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It can't be unfair when it is info readily available on the internet RELAYED BY EVEN BLIZZARD on official forums. It would be unfair if people realised they would need a bigger perspective at a certain moment and they couldn't get it, except by hacking. You can't expect all the advanced options inside a game. If a situation arose that a player wanted a bigger camera distance, google ffs. I did, many others did, we didn't get this info from exploit sites, but from legitimate sites like Wowwiki and its successors, fan sites etc.

You have to go specifically searching for the information, something 90% of people aren't going to do because they either didn't know the option existed in the first place or don't go to WoW sites. If it was made clear somewhere in-game you might have an argument but it's not made clear anywhere in-game, it requires outside research.

[Raiju]

What were those good arguments? I'm genuinely curious.

It's an advantage - this means something has to be done. Now for those with a preference to the camera distance we naturally want it integrated into the menu if anything, not removed entirely. The counter being

At the 3.4-CVar zoom level, your heroic Warcraft avatar takes up about as much screen-space as one of the dozens of marines you might control in a game of Starcraft.

This is correct, and it's a reasonable argument that there's detachment from your character. The issue is the world around us is too big. You can't make our character significant and the world this size at hte same time. Regardless, argument has merit.

Basically all of us started out playing WoW at the UI-enabled zoom level, and fell in love with that world enough that we now find ourselves here posting on an expansion beta forum discussing its future.

Also correct - it's a lot harder to connect with a character you barely see. It's not impossible, but its increased barrier to entry. That being said, this doesn't negate a menu option (particularly an advanced menu option)

Parroting these or using false arguments like 'it doesn't work in current raids' (largely incorrect, especially given the amount of outdoor fights both in wod and legion), personal preference as a reason to remove options for other players, etc. are not valid.

@Ferwyn, almost there - it's an advantage even if it's one you personally don't need. The rest of what you said is correct and why the option should stay (just like we aren't forced keybindings, addons or lackthereof, ui placement, etc.)
@Pengalor wow uses a queue based apm capped system. There is no penalty to clicking and not being able to recognize that says a lot.