Reduced Zoom in Legion

[wing5wong]

This is correct, and it's a reasonable argument that there's detachment from your character. The issue is the world around us is too big. You can't make our character significant and the world this size at hte same time.

The world IS big. The world is not TOO big.
People easily forget that when you shift the perspective from your character onto a "RTS commander" perspective

[Raiju]

The world IS big. The world is not TOO big.

Have a look at images on the front page, in this thread,etc. And tell us the fact you can't see full NPC's doesn't seem strange - moreso the fact this is a standard, not a one-off.

[Pengalor]

@Pengalor wow uses a queue based apm capped system. There is no penalty to clicking and not being able to recognize that says a lot.

Yeah, it just hampers your ability to move your character, the camera, and use abilities. The fact that you can't recognize that says even more. I'm not sure what kind of level you raid at but I guarantee you'd be doing it much more efficiently if you learned to use keybinds.

[Raiju]

Except it doesn't, maybe try it sometime Your camera has multiple settings that are used between different people - there is 0 ability loss because of the aforementioned system and movement is largely handled by strafe + camera facing.

[wing5wong]

@Pengalor wow uses a queue based apm capped system. There is no penalty to clicking and not being able to recognize that says a lot.

Im curious - how do you turn your camera while raid leading, and dodging void zones, all while still outperforming your raiders?

- - - Updated - - -

Have a look at images on the front page, in this thread,etc. And tell us the fact you can't see full NPC's doesn't seem strange - moreso the fact this is a standard, not a one-off.

These are giant NPCs. they are meant to be big - that's part of the point.
Restricting camera distance brings some of that sense of scale back.

Trying to pretend these are standard sized models.... i wont even bother.

[Deleted]

It's important to note the screenshot is extremely misleading. No, it's not about the angles or anything obscure and convoluted like that. It's simply that the UI is removed entirely.

Remove the UI on your client and see how everything surrounding the character looks "bigger to see".

[Raiju]

Im curious - how do you turn your camera while raid leading, and dodging void zones, all while still outperforming your raiders?

I place my camera well to begin with so turning needed is minimal or turn it in advance of hectic spots for myself in preparation for next important event. Dodging void zones is simply as is - move out or strafe out often using QWE, depending on other extraneous movement jumps are convenient ever since they got fixed in cata to not continue damage until the landing.

As for character models - thrymm is an example of a model that was meant to be too big but a dragon npc you interact with for quests, sitting down, is meant to be too big? lol.

[Pengalor]

Except it doesn't, maybe try it sometime Your camera has multiple settings that are used between different people - there is 0 ability loss because of the aforementioned system and movement is largely handled by strafe + camera facing.

Click an ability and move your camera at the same time. Oh, you can't. This isn't up for debate, it's a statement of fact, you have less options/ability when clicking. You are, by default, slower and clunkier than someone of the same skill level who is not clicking.

Either way, this conversation has gotten way off-topic, I'm just gonna end it here.

[Orwell7]

I really really start to think that all the art and assets of WoW should be scrapped.
We can play this game with just a console interface!

You type in commands real time, eg. move left, /cast fireball [target=boss], jump.
The console could give you warning messages like you got shit under your feet. We do not need visual clues. Also, remove the sounds of procs too, because it is an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't play with sound (or deaf).

We can go on with this shitty logic all day, it does NOT make their validation remotely correct.

Also, I really wanted an addon that "instantly" zoomed in or out the camera, I don't like the few seconds wait time before zooming in or out, but I can live without that. I probably could live without this max distance nerfed. But, in the long run, I can live without WoW.

[Deleted]

It's an advantage - this means something has to be done. Now for those with a preference to the camera distance we naturally want it integrated into the menu if anything, not removed entirely. The counter being

I don't think it's an advantage at all, since anybody can use it at anytime. I would agree that putting it on the slider would be the better option, but there's simply no reason whatsoever to remove the option entirely.

Besides, closed up this game and the characters look like shit. Having to stare at mush, almost PS1 level graphics that the models, spells and the animations look like would be the last thing I'd want to force up on players in late 2016. Edit: Not to mention the insane clipping that never seems to go away.

[Fabinas]

You have to go specifically searching for the information, something 90% of people aren't going to do because they either didn't know the option existed in the first place or don't go to WoW sites. If it was made clear somewhere in-game you might have an argument but it's not made clear anywhere in-game, it requires outside research.

If people weren't searching for information outside WoW (where did you pull that 90% number? out of your ass? worth as much as shit then) then there wouldn't be such a huge assortment of FANSITES for WoW covering almost every aspect of it (Item databases, forums like this one, dungeon/raid strategies), plus videos in youtube, plus streamers in twitch etc. You sound like a person that thinks anyone playing wow has never heard of the internet.

And again. If you played this game for a sufficient time frame and you never ever thought "hmm, i wish i could distance my camera zoom further, because i want to see a larger area for (insert any reason here)" then there is no reason for you to go outside the game and look for the console command. If you did think that, though, you'd fiddle with settings and then you'd go for assistance outside the game. HELL, you can post in official forums and ask about that, or open a damn ticket. If you never thought of reaching an outside of game source for your gaming needs, then i guess you're too good, too smart or too dumb. All in the extremest of the extremes.

[Raiju]

Let's just put some numbers shall we - you hit the ability first as that's obvious, if this is a reaction you can manage around a 0.2s due to your reaction time (0.15/0.18 if you're particularly quick), if you're pre-hitting it's 0.01-0.06 regardless of input. In the later case you can turn your camera in advance (previous GCD) in the former you do it after (during the GCD).

This all sounds very awkward, but it's simply a matter of filling camera into free GCD's (since there's not a single raid event ingame that requires below 0.7sec reaction). If this were pvp you would have a point.

[Pengalor]

If people weren't searching for information outside WoW (where did you pull that 90% number? out of your ass? worth as much as shit then) then there wouldn't be such a huge assortment of FANSITES for WoW covering almost every aspect of it (Item databases, forums like this one, dungeon/raid strategies), plus videos in youtube, plus streamers in twitch etc. You sound like a person that thinks anyone playing wow has never heard of the internet.

And again. If you played this game for a sufficient time frame and you never ever thought "hmm, i wish i could distance my camera zoom further, because i want to see a larger area for (insert any reason here)" then there is no reason for you to go outside the game and look for the console command. If you did think that, though, you'd fiddle with settings and then you'd go for assistance outside the game. HELL, you can post in official forums and ask about that, or open a damn ticket. If you never thought of reaching an outside of game source for your gaming needs, then i guess you're too good, too smart or too dumb. All in the extremest of the extremes.

Lol, this is hilarious. First off, yeah, the number is pulled out of thin air but I guarantee it isn't far off. If you think much more than 10% of the population of the game are using the console to zoom the camera to max distance then you are kidding yourself. And yeah, there are fansites, but how many of them have console commands plastered all over that you might just stumble on? And no, most people aren't going to go around googling how to increase the camera distance beyond what's in the UI. Why would they? It's completely illogical to assume there's going to be some hidden option that the UI just doesn't include arbitrarily that isn't some kind of hack or exploit.

[Deleted]

It's an advantage - this means something has to be done. Now for those with a preference to the camera distance we naturally want it integrated into the menu if anything, not removed entirely. The counter being

At the 3.4-CVar zoom level, your heroic Warcraft avatar takes up about as much screen-space as one of the dozens of marines you might control in a game of Starcraft.

This is correct, and it's a reasonable argument that there's detachment from your character. The issue is the world around us is too big. You can't make our character significant and the world this size at hte same time. Regardless, argument has merit.

Basically all of us started out playing WoW at the UI-enabled zoom level, and fell in love with that world enough that we now find ourselves here posting on an expansion beta forum discussing its future.

Also correct - it's a lot harder to connect with a character you barely see. It's not impossible, but its increased barrier to entry. That being said, this doesn't negate a menu option (particularly an advanced menu option)

Parroting these or using false arguments like 'it doesn't work in current raids' (largely incorrect, especially given the amount of outdoor fights both in wod and legion), personal preference as a reason to remove options for other players, etc. are not valid.

@Ferwyn, almost there - it's an advantage even if it's one you personally don't need. The rest of what you said is correct and why the option should stay (just like we aren't forced keybindings, addons or lackthereof, ui placement, etc.)
@Pengalor wow uses a queue based apm capped system. There is no penalty to clicking and not being able to recognize that says a lot.

Typing on a phone and it is horribly frustrating to edit to the part you mentioned me in! I just don't see how it is an advantage though. I do disagree with them removing it, purely because they said it is an advantage. If they had a different reason, then sure, but the reason they gave is a load of ballocks. As a melee, and a casual tank I see what is needed to see. Only time I scroll to the max on the default (without command) is if I am pushed into a wall (like tanking Council in HFC). I just can't get my head around how it's an advantage. Maybe it is just for PVP (something I never do)?

[Fabinas]

Sure, you guarantee your thin air percentage isn't far off. How relieved i am i just saw the truth. You're not helping yourself by pulling numbers out of your ass.

I don't think of ANY number of people who use the console command. I understand from my own experience that this is useful sometimes and, therefore, i speculate that many players use it. The participation and the number of people complaining in this and the official forums about this matter is an indication to me that the majority of the people who use this console command are annoyed. If they are the player majority as well, i don't know and i don't care. All i care is to see if my annoyance is a single event or if there are others like me. And there are. Blizzard will only know exact numbers, not you, nor me. Stop bringing in numbers and majority here as an argument to make my concerns seem invalid. You can't prove any of it (nor i, that's why i have never used in any of my posts that kind of argument).

Please google "max camera distance macro", it will answer how many sites have that info available. You don't stumble upon that info. If a player thinks that a bigger camera zoom is needed at some point, he will go and actively search for it. Why he would assume that it cannot happen? So if a manual of a device isn't clear enough about a feature, you assume you can't get what you want from it? You will not search around to see if you can get what you want from it or from where you can get it?

You seem to think people are dumb. And maybe they are. But you're probably judging from your own intellect.

[Deleted]

They will probably u-turn this decision due to accessibility reasons.

They should just make it an option in the settings UI for those that prefer to be max zoomed out.

[Kelimbror]

regardless how far you are zoomed in/out it won't make you a better player.

Increases your vision, allows you to see more incoming damage, gives you more time to react. If you still just stand there, sure, you don't improve. That's true of anything.

no set of keybinds will make you a better player

False. Keybinds reduce the time spent looking at buttons, input from the mouse, etc...all equating to more time focusing on you FoV and fight mechanics. It also allows for smoother casting on instant/CDs instead of having to move your mouse over the next button, allowing you to queue and fire off spells quicker. It's just objective numbers.

This is like saying that running 100m isn't faster than walking 100m. It's just patently false.

[Poppincaps]

Anyone who is using the argument of it providing a competitive advantage is drinking the cool aid. It's a bullshit excuse. It may provide a very SLIGHT advantage, but if it was truly significant then Blizzard would have fixed it AGES ago. Blizzard isn't always the best when it comes to balance, but they certainly weed out when shit is broken pretty quickly. If they believed that this camera zoom was significant they would've changed it long ago.

Also, they are being hypocritical considering that they are adding the action cam to the game which zooms in your character and changes the placement of your character in the frame. If information is the advantage, then people using the action cam will be at a disadvantage compared to people using the default zoom. But of course Blizzard I'm sure that Blizzard would say it's fine, since it's just an option. Despite the fact that the enhanced zoom was just an option and anyone could use it.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Watcher made good arguments for the reduced camera, you have not. That's the difference when you pretend you're defending some other side by going 'WELL I NEVER LIKED IT ANYWAY'

Watcher actually made terrible arguments for reduced camera, his logic would necessitate the complete removal of all addons since they apparently value parity so much now. Watcher is also aware that his argument consists of bullshitting (that or he was an extremely bad lawyer before going into video games).

[Raiju]

Watcher actually made terrible arguments for reduced camera, his logic would necessitate the complete removal of all addons since they apparently value parity so much now. Watcher is also aware that his argument consists of bullshitting (that or he was an extremely bad lawyer before going into video games).

Not essentially, a good argument means you bring points worth considering. It doesn't mean they remain solid under scrutiny.