BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Tinch]

Again. Is the UK that similar to Mexico?

Why do we have to be similar? Or put another way, why can Mexico have an FTA with the EU but the UK can't?

[Triks]

I want one with Mars.

I almost spat out my coffee. T-thanks Bambs.

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Why do we have to be similar? Or put another way, why can Mexico have an FTA with the EU but the UK can't?

Because Mexico isn't in Europe.

[Tinch]

They are inseparable if you are in Europe and trading with the EU. Now that we are speaking about it, I want a free movement agreement with Fiji. Come on Merkel, do it! DO IT!

Well now the goalposts have moved. Where in EU legislation does it state that?

If the EU gets free movement with Fiji I want a second referendum and I'll pretend I was remain all along.

[Triks]

Well now the goalposts have moved. Where in EU legislation does it state that?

If the EU gets free movement with Fiji I want a second referendum and I'll pretend I was remain all along.

Nah we ain't. I want the benefit of going on a vacation to Fiji. If Fiji don't accept my terms they are terrible fascists that don't honor the democratic will of the people and trample over my sovereign ambitions.

[khalltusk]

Why do we have to be similar? Or put another way, why can Mexico have an FTA with the EU but the UK can't?

What about the 1-2 million EU workers we have in London alone? Or the people like my self who go abroad for work within the EU? The free movement of EU people is possibly the best part of the EU. Non EU migration is the true problem and even then its not legal migration thats the issue. Its illegal immigration.

[Tinch]

What about the 1-2 million EU workers we have in London alone? Or the people like my self who go abroad for work within the EU? The free movement of EU people is possibly the best part of the EU. Non EU migration is the true problem and even then its not legal migration thats the issue. Its illegal immigration.

I would argue the issue for most people in the UK is mass immigration. It is not one of my main issues personally, but it is an objective fact that if you have freedom of movement you cannot control the number of people that are entering the UK.

[khalltusk]

I would argue the issue for most people in the UK is mass immigration. It is not one of my main issues personally, but it is an objective fact that if you have freedom of movement you cannot control the number of people that are entering the UK.

What about mass immigration affects you personally? Just curious here. We need immigration and over 80% of people from the EU that come here have Jobs. Thats a really good amount. If you come here to work and especially jobs that many people from the UK won't want to do I say good!

Ever seen the documentary about Polish taxi drivers coming to the UK? They had to do a load of tests for the company they worked for (knowing exact routes in their head with no GPS and what the cost would be). If you come here purely for benefits yes thats something our government should clamp down on and has the power to.

Illegal immigration is the issue. Legal immigration is a positive as they mostly come to work. The only objective fact is you cannot control legal migrants coming here from the UK who should not be an issue as they work. Those who come from outside the EU we have control over.

[Rockyreg]

Thats true. The referendum was done for the wrong reasons. It was about political games and collecting voters from the right wing. This bitterly failed because those voters will feel like are ignored or lied to, depending on remain or leave.

What already came up several times in germany: the UK just wanted to play games and get even more privileges. They overplayed that card simply.

Europe is fed up about their special snowflake that always got their extra chocolate and always wanted more and more and more.

But I think what you fail to understand is that voters have been ignored and lied to. All these much maligned 'old uneducated' leave voters were around for the 1975 referendum where freedom of movement specifically meant 'workers'. They have since been refused referendums (which were promised by the Labour government) ever since the Maastrict Treaty which allowed movement of 'people' regardless of whether they had an intended job to go to or even if they were even looking for a job. The fact people were surprised the over 50s voted in this way is astonishing considering they were denied for decades.

However what I do find strange is that all the people saying how ridiculous the referendum was yet are more than happy to support Scottish referendum. I find this completely hypocritical.

[Tinch]

What about mass immigration affects you personally? Just curious here. We need immigration and over 80% of people from the EU that come here have Jobs. Thats a really good amount. If you come here to work and especially jobs that many people from the UK won't want to do I say good!

Ever seen the documentary about Polish taxi drivers coming to the UK? They had to do a load of tests for the company they worked for (knowing exact routes in their head with no GPS and what the cost would be). If you come here purely for benefits yes thats something our government should clamp down on and has the power to.

Illegal immigration is the issue. Legal immigration is a positive as they mostly come to work.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not opposed to it in practice, like I said I don't have a particular issue with it and like you can see the benefits. I am opposed to it in principle though, in the sense that I believe national governments should be able to control who and how many people they allow to enter the country.

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Maybe true for most brexiters, not most britains.

According to the 2014 British Social Attitudes Survey, 77% of people want to see immigration reduced, with 56% wanting to see it reduced ‘a lot’ and an additional 21% wanting to see it reduced ‘a little’.

The same poll asked whether respondents asked whether respondents supported David Cameron’s pledge to reduce net immigration into Britain from hundreds of thousands to the tens of thousands. 78% of respondents supported the policy, while 10% opposed it and 12% didn’t know.

Yougov poll

78% support the government’s aim to reduce net migration to the tens of thousands, including 70% of those who voted Liberal Democrat in the 2010 General Election.

A May 2014 poll by YouGov for Population Matters found that 62% of respondents wanted to see the UK population decrease and 22% wanted it to stay the same. Just 11% wanted to see the population increase.

[khalltusk]

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not opposed to it in practice, like I said I don't have a particular issue with it and like you can see the benefits. I am opposed to it in principle though, in the sense that I believe national governments should be able to control who and how many people they allow to enter the country.

Right, I get where you're coming from, but i'd rather keep what we have than tear it up. As for me EU migrations great, but we needed to do better regarding refugees (not simply migrants as the press makes it out when these people come from freaking warzones in large numbers) and illegal migrants from non warzones. If we funded and trained our border forces better than they are now we would have far less issues on that front.

To me the whole EU migrations thing is made as a scape goat for our governments own failings.

[TwoNineMarine]

Here's a question for you folk in Britain.

Is there an active divide between Brexiters and Remainers? Like between friends and family is there a level of animosity?

[khalltusk]

Here's a question for you folk in Britain.

Is there an active divide between Brexiters and Remainers? Like between friends and family is there a level of animosity?

Yep, I know many friends of mine who've had major arguments with their own family/friends. Even my own family had a rift between my dad and my brothers (they are remain like me and my dad was leave).

All this whole farce has down is rip open a wound through the UK, and also given free reign for the bigots to come out. By bigots I mean the ones actually telling people who have a different skin colour to fuck off home or putting letters into peoples homes telling them to leave etc.

[Deleted]

Here's a question for you folk in Britain.

Is there an active divide between Brexiters and Remainers? Like between friends and family is there a level of animosity?

Very much. As it is a generational thing to an extent it cuts through family discussions for many. Fair few "human interest" pieces on the bbc website currently about it.

[Tinch]

What's more important, a principled or a practical approach?

Almost immediately the brexit camp started to back away from their reduction in immigration numbers plan post brexit.

Eu immigration has had a positive impact on our economy, brexit know that and that's why they have flip-flopped on their immigration numbers promise.

Like I said i'm not inherently opposed to free movement of people, it wasn't a determining factor in my vote anyway.

I certainly don't expect them to reduce net migration to the tens of thousands any time soon, unless they intend to crash our economy worse than brexit ever could.

[TwoNineMarine]

Very much. As it is a generational thing to an extent it cuts through family discussions for many. Fair few "human interest" pieces on the bbc website currently about it.

I need to check out the BBC more.

You say it was a generational thing. Does that mean that older folks voted one way and the younger the next?

Yep, I know many friends of mine who've had major arguments with their own family/friends. Even my own family had a rift between my dad and my brothers (they are remain like me and my dad was leave).

All this whole farce has down is rip open a wound through the UK, and also given free reign for the bigots to come out. By bigots I mean the ones actually telling people who have a different skin colour to fuck off home or putting letters into peoples homes telling them to leave etc.

Damn that's crazy. Hopefully things can repair themselves.

The bigots should be punched right in the dick.

I personally believe the UK made the right call but I've got no dog in the fight.

[Jessicka]

I would argue the issue for most people in the UK is mass immigration. It is not one of my main issues personally, but it is an objective fact that if you have freedom of movement you cannot control the number of people that are entering the UK.

No, the problems are the perceived side effects. School places, NHS waits, social housing shortages. These aren't unpredictable or insurmountable issues.

[Deleted]

I need to check out the BBC more.

You say it was a generational thing. Does that mean that older folks voted one way and the younger the next?

Typically yes, there are other factors though such as education and level of employment and where you live. e.g.for me my age group is about 50/50 but there is a very clear divide around whether you live or work in a city that does okay for itself or is improving and whether of not you have an education past the age of 16 and again for if you are a Uni graduate.

Here's an example of the type of pieces I mention: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36656392

[Tinch]

No, the problems are the perceived side effects. School places, NHS waits, social housing shortages. These aren't unpredictable or insurmountable issues.

The problem is successive governments have failed to tackle these issues for so long that many people have taken the view that if they won't sort out the supply, then lets reduce the demand.

[Deleted]

I would argue the issue for most people in the UK is mass immigration. It is not one of my main issues personally, but it is an objective fact that if you have freedom of movement you cannot control the number of people that are entering the UK.

Well you must be happy that even the leave campaign has said that leaving won't make much difference to immigration numbers.

Oh wait...

[TwoNineMarine]

Typically yes, there are other factors though such as education and level of employment and where you live. e.g.for me my age group is about 50/50 but there is a very clear divide around whether you live or work in a city that does okay for itself or is improving and whether of not you have an education past the age of 16 and again for if you are a Uni graduate.

Here's an example of the type of pieces I mention: [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine

Ah ok I'll take a look.

While I understand the drive to stay for a lot of people I've never been a fan of huge over reaching government entities. Always makes me skeptical.

Either way I hope it works out for everyone there at least in regards to infighting and moving forward.

The cards have been dealt. Now people have to figure out the best way to move on.