The UK is suffering from a bad atmosphere

[Kalis]

So we're agreed that in this instance, self determination is a weak argument, although not in every instance.

Yeah, I'm still looking for a good reason that all the "leavers" supposedly had in thier hearts. Because it's pretty plain that most of it was "I'm pissed off about life and the papers are telling me to blame the foreigners who are here".

By no means is this the end, open invitation for anyone to come up with an actually valid reason for voting leave.

Self determination is a very strong argument, you not liking it does not make it a weak one. That a country is free to decide on whatever rules it wants to, even if that means agreeing to implement some EU rules in order to trade, is extremely powerful for a nation and ingrained deep within the psyche of people - imagine if NAFTA had control of borders in North America and Mexico got to dictate US immigration policy, the US would have riots.

Some of the most famous wars in history have had self determination as a major influence in them.

[Deleted]

Muslim immigration isn't new though... we've had muslim immigrants since the 60s

I'm well aware.

But look at the media, radical preachers in Islam schools, Sharia Zones, homegrown terrorists, Rotherham, refugee crisis.

None of that is EU immigrants and thats what people voted to stop.

People see the shit happening in Germany and voted for it not to happen here, and yet it might still happen here, because the amount of refugees we've said we'll take in has absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

[Kalis]

I want Cameron back now...... I never thought I would type that!

Cameron was never that bad, he was relatively mild for a classic Tory, but he would never get that acknowledged from most people due to partisan politics.

[Deleted]

I'm well aware.

But look at the media, radical preachers in Islam schools, Sharia Zones, homegrown terrorists, Rotherham, refugee crisis.

None of that is EU immigrants and thats what people voted to stop.

People see the shit happening in Germany and voted for it not to happen here, and yet it might still happen here, because the amount of refugees we've said we'll take in has absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

True but I think it's incredibly dishonest and insulting to call every LEAVE voter racist. My mother isn't racist, her reasons wasn't immigration yet people are throwing nasty comments towards people like my mother and frankly this attitude makes the situation worst

[Deleted]

True but I think it's incredibly dishonest and insulting to call every LEAVE voter racist. My mother isn't racist, her reasons wasn't immigration yet people are throwing nasty comments towards people like my mother and frankly this attitude makes the situation worst

I'm not calling them racist, I didn't say that at all, so don't put words in my mouth.

People are afraid, theres nothing wrong with that. It is the fault of the current political parties that have allowed such fear to grow rampant by ignoring the working classes. When the likes of UKIP are your own only option to have your voice heard, you know you've fucked up.

[Deleted]

I'm not calling them racist, I didn't say that at all, so don't put words in my mouth.

People are afraid, theres nothing wrong with that. It is the fault of the current political parties that have allowed such fear to grow rampant by ignoring the working classes. When the likes of UKIP are your own only option to have your voice heard, you know you've fucked up.

I wasn't accusing you persay as such

[Kalis]

I wasn't accusing you persay as such

That does it.

Free London from the North!

[Deleted]

That does it.

Free London from the North!

I knew somebody would pick up on that

[Deleted]

Polish people are brown?

Most immigrants swarming your country are, the fucking UKIP is a racist piece of shit party and the biggest supporter of the Brexit.
You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? Just make tread after tread trying to bad mouth people that have an issue with how the brexit is dealt with without actually having voted your self or understand the difficulties some people have with this matter.

[Deleted]

That does it.

Free London from the North!

Maybe Helden's name is Percy, that is how it comes out in some parts of Yorkshire.

[Ryme]

I really don't like how the entire EU debate has been reduced by loud idiots on both sides to nothing but immigration policy.

[Deleted]

I can confirm that my name is not Percy.

[Kalis]

Maybe Helden's name is Percy, that is how it comes out in some parts of Yorkshire.

Then we will declare war on Yorkshire for not capitalising a proper noun.

War of the Roses 2: The Grammar Nazi-ing of the North.

[Deleted]

Most immigrants swarming your country are, the fucking UKIP is a racist piece of shit party and the biggest supporter of the Brexit.
You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? Just make tread after tread trying to bad mouth people that have an issue with how the brexit is dealt with without actually having voted your self or understand the difficulties some people have with this matter.

Not everybody voting LEAVE supported UKIP
Some people voted LEAVE because they felt EU threatened their livelihoods
I understand the difficulty and in hindsight I would've voted REMAIN
However what annoys me is a % of the REMAIN crowd calling EVERYBODY who voted LEAVE as racist clueless idiots. That doesn't help anybody

[Derah]

In representative democracy a referendum like this should have never been called. Universal suffrage means that the only qualifications required to vote are 18 years of age and a body temperature around 37C. A tremendous number of people lack the political acumen, intellectual capacity or education to be capable of making educated decisions on such complicated and important issues as EU membership.

isn't that the very definition of what a Dictatorship means?

Let someone else who is better than you make decisions for you and basically rule over your life? Are you saying we should all go back to having kings and emperors who unilaterally decide every single aspect of our lives?

Fuck that shit. Just for the record, I'm not british, I'm venezuelan, and for what its worth, as I was watching this whole situation, I was hoping the "stay" side would win, if nothing else, because a lot of the arguments for leaving were based on xenophobia.

But you gotta understand that while democracy is not perfect, but its VASTLY preferable to the alternatives. Yes, people fucked up, but that's the price you pay when you get to rule your own life. The plus side of democracy is that you don't get a tyrant, or a group of tyrants who think they're better than you deciding your life for you. The downside of democracy, is that there will be times where stupid people make stupid decisions.

Solution = Abolish democracy? fuck no. Solution = Learn from those mistakes, and avoid repeating them. Hopefully the disenfranchised voters who just doomed their country with their ill-advised decision to leave the EU will learn from those mistakes.

Lemme use an analogy to get this across:

Children are stupid. They somehow manage to become EVEN MORE stupid when they become teenagers, then slowly, over the years, as they become adults, they gain the benefits of experience and wisdom to make better decisions. A lot of the choices we make in our earlier years tend to be pretty fucking stupid when we look back at them with the benefit of hindsight.

But does that mean its better that your parents, and other adults with more wisdom and experience COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY RULE OVER YOUR LIFE until you're 50 or 60 years old? Fuck no man, that would deny you the chance to fuck up, to make mistakes and learn from them, it would make you a cuddled, pampered, mamma/daddy's boy who is incapable of making ANY decisions whatsoever, because your entire life, other people have been making them for you.

The best way to let a child grow up, is to let them make decisions. Even stupid decisions. Specially the stupid ones. Let them fall, and get back up, let them scrape their knees, and heal up. Don't just hold their hand and spoon-feed them into adulthood, because the world will devour them.

Same principle goes for democracy. The power to make important decisions should NOT rest on a small privileged elite, lest we go back to the time where only a handful of people ruled over the world.

For good or ill, the power MUST remain in the hands of the people. This doesn't mean the people will always choose right, but that's part of the natural process of life.

[alexw]

Cameron was never that bad, he was relatively mild for a classic Tory, but he would never get that acknowledged from most people due to partisan politics.

Cameron was/is a total idiot. The UK has a severely unbalanced economy dominated by the SE and by financial services which over-rewards a tiny few. There needed to be change at a fundamental level but what does he do? He goes and takes the UK's pre-existing asset bubble and supercharges it so as to bribe older asset owning demographics to vote Tory. He took the dire UK economy and spent 5 years making it worse while also significantly widening the gulf between the haves and have nots. Now he is reaping what he has sowed.

[Tijuana]

In representative democracy a referendum like this should have never been called. Universal suffrage means that the only qualifications required to vote are 18 years of age and a body temperature around 37C. A tremendous number of people lack the political acumen, intellectual capacity or education to be capable of making educated decisions on such complicated and important issues as EU membership.

This is why people elect representatives who ought to make an educated vote in a parliament for something that is in the best interest of their constituency.

To quote Bill Maher from an unrelated issues.

10 billions flies eat shit. That doesn't mean shit is delicious.

You basically just summed up the left, authoritarianism, and the difference between Europe and The US, all in one sentence. The notion that only a few people are smart enough to understand the difference between being in and out of the EU is laughable.

[Theodarzna]

Though technically about BREXIT we won't be going into political reasons etc and more discuss the atmosphere from the people I personally experience.

Firstly I voted for neither IN or OUT but my family voted OUT. What I have noticed however is a really uncomfortable atmosphere that emulates the nastiness of the campaign. I'll try and give examples.

I was talking to a EU resident that lives here who had always being passive. However after the results he's become hostile towards British people and lamenting how nobody wants him here. I also heard another couple trash talking REMAIN voters as traitors. One of my nurses is upset we voted OUT and it's really awkward. Even my own mother talks about it in a way that's uncomfortable. That's not even mentioning FB where alleged friends are turning on each other. I even watched a comedy show about it which ultimately wasn't funny and just uncomfortable viewing.

For me I feel in the middle because I have friends and loved ones from both sides and have to listen to the nastiness. Anybody else feeling this

Things get very tense when its issues of allegiance and communal identity. You would not think so since we like to all pretend we are above it but IMHO we really are not above any of that.

In spite of the "post-nationalist" pretences, Europe is very much a national identity to some people and the EU is fulfilling that role. It takes on this vision as a pioneer of the future, the "European Project," has an emotional resonance for many. As does the idea of Britain, Britishness, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, ect.

Identity can be very powerful.

[Kalis]

Cameron was/is a total idiot. The UK has a severely unbalanced economy dominated by the SE and by financial services which over-rewards a tiny few. There needed to be change at a fundamental level but what does he do? He goes and takes the UK's pre-existing asset bubble and supercharges it so as to bribe older asset owning demographics to vote Tory. He took the dire UK economy and spent 5 years making it worse while also significantly widening the gulf between the haves and have nots. Now he is reaping what he has sowed.

What partisan bollocks. Labour would have done virtually the same as the Conservatives with the economy, except possibly spent more of what we do not have.

[Deleted]

Good the ones that are serious and working will stay in UK the others will leave or get deported. I don't see why UK should keep romanian gypsy beggers in UK and not send them back to Romania. It's not UK's problem.

And if you feel "unwelcomed" in UK, tough luck, grow a thicker skin and accep the world is not a "safe space".