Randomness vs determination

[Glorious Leader]

Grinding lots of currency and then visiting a vendor to purchase a piece of gear wasn't very exciting over the long term.

So I was pretty tempted to open this by shouting something like no you fucking morons grinding currency is more exciting than rolling the dice 50 million fucking times "over the long term" but let's save that rant for another time. Theirs a benefit for the developers end to rng in character progression, it extends the life of content and potentially masks long and unpleasant grinds. Having said that I think that's incredible poor motivation to offer players. The greater motivation is the reward you can see. They seem to think that deterministic reward schemes are boring in the long term but isn't that basically what lvling is? And isn't that was people come back for every expansion?

[RedGamer030]

It is pretty boring adding up the total Conquest you needed for a full set of gear and then grinding PvP content to get to that number.

[Kaeth]

The random reward system is more addicting than a predictable reward system. Plain and simple. Whether you prefer random chance or a time/currency grind, the loot slot machine is more likely to lead to addiction-like behavior for a larger number of people.

They do it to keep players addicted to the Skinner box and paying $15 to $20 a month to keep rolling the dice every week. And that's why I waited 20 weeks to get a Dragonspine Trophy in TBC.

[Glorious Leader]

The random reward system is more addicting than a predictable reward system. Plain and simple. Whether you prefer random chance or a time/currency grind, the loot slot machine is more likely to lead to addiction-like behavior for a larger number of people.

They do it to keep players addicted to the Skinner box and paying $15 to $20 a month to keep rolling the dice every week. And that's why I waited 20 weeks to get a Dragonspine Trophy in TBC.

I disagree. Theirs casinos for people who want to gamble. People want progress in their rpgs. Not open box garbage open next box garbage open 3rd box garbage and on and on and on.

- - - Updated - - -

It is pretty boring adding up the total Conquest you needed for a full set of gear and then grinding PvP content to get to that number.

It's more boring then disenchanting garbage piece after garbage piece? (that's assuming you actually get anything).

[Kaeth]

I disagree. Theirs casinos for people who want to gamble.

I'm not talking about what people want. I'm talking about what makes most people addicted.

I'd prefer a currency grind as well.

[Glorious Leader]

I'm not talking about what people want. I'm talking about what makes most people addicted.

I'd prefer a currency grind as well.

I don't think it does make people more addicted. What proof do you offer of this? They've been increasing rng for awhile and it hasn't hooked anybody...

[Ryzael]

I absolutely hate RNG.

Half the players are happy in the middle, they don't notice anything wrong, the odds are working exactly as they should. Then on one side, you have all the abnormally lucky players who win 50 times in a row, and on my side you have the abnormally unlucky players who lose 50 times in a row.

It all evens out in the end. It just sucks for the really unlucky few who never get anything.

I'd grind 1 at a time any day forever if it meant I didn't get nothing after nothing like I always do.

[RedGamer030]

It's more boring then disenchanting garbage piece after garbage piece? (that's assuming you actually get anything).

You seem to assume you will only get "garbage" pieces, yet have no idea how it will actually work out. MMO-Champion user at its finest.

[Glorious Leader]

You seem to assume you will only get "garbage" pieces, yet have no idea how it will actually work out. MMO-Champion user at its finest.

Yea I assume I will basically get the shaft 9/10 otherwise it would not serve to hold my interest as it's designed. If you actually got what you wanted, you could "finish".

[RedGamer030]

Yea I assume I will basically get the shaft 9/10 otherwise it would not serve to hold my interest as it's designed. If you actually got what you wanted, you could "finish".

Valiantly putting the "ass" in "assumption."

[Glorious Leader]

I mean let's take the principle they think is so good and apply it to lvling. People lvl 1-100 PURELY as determinism, and they are more or less trained on the way to lvl 100 to chase this. So why can't lvling be random? It's asburd but what's the difference between grinding currency and a bar full of experience? It's the same shit. Why not make lvling random? Everyone would fucking hate it but if they're going to be consistent about it that's what they would do. Being consistent is not necessarily always the best thing to do but it just shows you the hole in that particular belief that deterministic progression is bad. Shit they included the artifact weapon as exactly that. So why isn't the artifact weapon rng?

[Celarent]

I completely disagree with Blizzard's current position on gear purchases, if for no other reason than that the artifact weapon embodies this principle.

Half a decade ago, you could get lucky with a drop or you could build sweat equity for the same or a similar item, logging in diligently to complete tasks, knowing you were guaranteed to eventually earn what you wanted.

It wasn't "exciting" but for crying out loud, not everything in a game needs to be about a single emotion. And a fleeting one at that.

[Glorious Leader]

Valiantly putting the "ass" in "assumption."

Oh you expect to be getting plenty of good gear in a decent time frame. Well theirs one born every minute I hear..

- - - Updated - - -

I completely disagree with Blizzard's current position on gear purchases, if for no other reason than that the artifact weapon embodies this principle.

Precisely yes! They added a deterministic reward system at end game flying right in the face of their view on rng. It makes no fucking sense. Why not just make gear acquisition more deterministic. You don't need to add any additional systems.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Oh you expect to be getting plenty of good gear in a decent time frame. Well theirs one born every minute I hear..

- - - Updated - - -



Precisely yes! They added a deterministic reward system at end game flying right in the face of their view on rng. It makes no fucking sense. Why not just make gear acquisition more deterministic. You don't need to add any additional systems.

Define a decent time frame. There's always going to be some kind of RNG in MMOs(In some areas right now WoW has a bit too much I.E. Roll the Bones for rogues.)

[Deleted]

I like a bit of both. In Legion it seems they're completely taking away the ability to purchase things though.

[Glorious Leader]

Define a decent time frame. There's always going to be some kind of RNG in MMOs(In some areas right now WoW has a bit too much I.E. Roll the Bones for rogues.)

That's just it with rng it's who fucking knows? It could be a month it could be 4? When I know what I'm going to purchase and I know what I'm working towards at least I have the assurance that I"m going to be able to plan out ahead how I want to build my character. In what order and in what time frame. It's far more rewarding than MAYBE this time ill get something... Imagine if you logged on to lvl an alt and you quested for hours but lvling is rng so you weren't sure you'd get a lvl. How retarded would that be? You turn in a quest for variable exp or randomly whenever you turn ina quest you get a lvl. It's the same principle but it's absolutely awful in design.

[Tharkkun]

The currency system is boring though. You earn loot on a schedule so there's no excitement to it. Since the stats on the gear will not improve your PVP performance the RNG system works. It doesn't matter anymore what piece you upgrade, only that your ilevel increases. You can get neck, bracers, clock, rings, boots, etc before your weapon and your PVP power increases just as fast.For those wanting to use PVP gear for PVE it somewhat hurts them but they should be using other sources for PVE progression.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

That's just it with rng it's who fucking knows? It could be a month it could be 4? When I know what I'm going to purchase and I know what I'm working towards at least I have the assurance that I"m going to be able to plan out ahead how I want to build my character. In what order and in what time frame. It's far more rewarding than MAYBE this time ill get something... Imagine if you logged on to lvl an alt and you quested for hours but lvling is rng so you weren't sure you'd get a lvl. How retarded would that be? You turn in a quest for variable exp or randomly whenever you turn ina quest you get a lvl. It's the same principle.

If they have no RNG whatsoever you'll max out at a certain point in no time.

[Glorious Leader]

If they have no RNG whatsoever you'll max out at a certain point in no time.

Depends on the time frame. I mean you'll max out with rng as well but ultimately any system of determinism depends on the design behind it. The difference between what the developers think is interesting and I don't is (for one) choice.

- - - Updated - - -

The currency system is boring though. You earn loot on a schedule so there's no excitement to it. Since the stats on the gear will not improve your PVP performance the RNG system works. It doesn't matter anymore what piece you upgrade, only that your ilevel increases. You can get neck, bracers, clock, rings, boots, etc before your weapon and your PVP power increases just as fast.For those wanting to use PVP gear for PVE it somewhat hurts them but they should be using other sources for PVE progression.

A schedule= You mean I can plan ahead and pick out what I want ahead of time. Yea that sounds much more exciting than here you go here's some shit. We don't know what it is and we're not gonna guarantee it's good but how exciting!. Look as was pointed out the developers ADDED the artifact weapon as a means of determinsitic progression at end game. It's good, it's what the game needs but they didn't need to add this layer on top of gear. They just needed to return to the the old valor systems buying tier from a vendor.

[Kaeth]

I don't think they'll ever completely eliminate RNG loot in favor of a currency system, but it saddens me that they think they should move toward increased RNG.