[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

So, wait, their assumption is that Ret Paladins will just use all three blessings on themselves? What raiding Ret Paladin think that's the best use of those abilities?

No, that's not their assumption. The design goal is that we should buff others.

The problem is that Blizzard never really communicated this clearly. Thete for example encountered many Rets on Beta who were using the blessings wrong (all 3 on themselves or wisdom on healers and such shenanigans)

And all of us will see in pugs the same errors because many Ret players don't read guides or forum posts regarding this subject.

[Ulthane]

@Storm the Sorrow

Nutshell the issues mentioned
-Judgment and Greater Judgment
-BoJ row, how it improved vs what it could still see
-Shield of Vengeance needed as a replacement defensive to Divine Purpose
-Divine Steed baseline
-75 row becoming a playstyle row: nuke, support, off tank thus fixing inherent talent issuess making them interesting.
-100 row, given the idea to either remove Holy Wrath or make hw baseline you would see more imteraction in the row.
-Greater Blessings are just not good right now beat the dead horse on it.

Soooo...... ya...... i did talk about those.

[Morally Grey Storm]

@Storm the Sorrow

Nutshell the issues mentioned
-Judgment and Greater Judgment
-BoJ row, how it improved vs what it could still see
-Shield of Vengeance needed as a replacement defensive to Divine Purpose
-Divine Steed baseline
-75 row becoming a playstyle row: nuke, support, off tank thus fixing inherent talent issuess making them interesting.
-100 row, given the idea to either remove Holy Wrath or make hw baseline you would see more imteraction in the row.
-Greater Blessings are just not good right now beat the dead horse on it.

Soooo...... ya...... i did talk about those.

Did you?
Oh yes I remember, like when you proposed a one minute cd on a baseline derpony.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Warriors have two mobility options...that aren't necessarily talents.


Charge and Heroic Leap. Blizz....stop smoking the dope. a passive movement buff wouldn't break balance you crazy mudda fuddas.

[Teleros]

So, wait, their assumption is that Ret Paladins will just use all three blessings on themselves? What raiding Ret Paladin think that's the best use of those abilities?

I think the most sensible way to interpret it is that 1-2 GBoMs are bonus/free/extra damage, no top of whatever we have, assuming we use all 3 GB slots for GBoM.

= + =

Charge and Heroic Leap. Blizz....stop smoking the dope. a passive movement buff wouldn't break balance you crazy mudda fuddas.

It starts with the passive movement speed buffs, but it doesn't end there! Oh no! Before long you'll have dispel-proof bubble off the GCD! SoV as a meaningful defensive CD! Holy Wrath/Equality gone! AND THEN WHERE WOULD WE BE? EH? EH?!

/tinfoil

[Sungamnori]

No, that's not their assumption. The design goal is that we should buff others.

The problem is that Blizzard never really communicated this clearly. Thete for example encountered many Rets on Beta who were using the blessings wrong (all 3 on themselves or wisdom on healers and such shenanigans)

And all of us will see in pugs the same errors because many Ret players don't read guides or forum posts regarding this subject.

I read forums, I read guides, I'm knowledgeable about the changes. But as long as Blessings are how they currently are, I will never ever use one of them to buff a player other than myself. If that means I can't do organized raiding and can only LFR, then so be it.. but I will not legitimize Blizzard's shitty design by playing how they want me to play.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It starts with the passive movement speed buffs, but it doesn't end there! Oh no! Before long you'll have dispel-proof bubble off the GCD! SoV as a meaningful defensive CD! Holy Wrath/Equality gone! AND THEN WHERE WOULD WE BE? EH? EH?!

/tinfoil

Ok this made me laugh. Good show.

Really I think Blizzard should at least stop being stubborn about things. It's ok to do that when it warrants it but a lot of the times well it doesn't.

[ruiizu]

Wake of ashes is all we got. But DS doesnt scales with the judment debuff as that is only applyed to a few targets. I don't mean to say we are awful, but we can't keep up with the best. Just sim fury and ret for an iskar fight on ask mt robot and you see the difference. And thats at810ilvl. It will get worse as gear gets better due to the scaling. Sim's are made with all traits unlcked aswell.

People seem to enjoy reading what i say in absolutes. When i say we won't be competitive, i don't say we will be completely useless. But due to mastery, single target will always be what we can excel at. Not AoE.

We'll have to see how we do on current content; Mr. Robot is not exactly a source I trust for real data. My experience on the beta doesn't seem to suggest to me that our AE is very bad, and I've played with other players. It's likely Divine Storm will get buffed if our AE is doing too poorly, as it's not even remotely close to ever being used over TV in single target, and currently not even really at two target (though I sometimes use it on two targets out of habit on the beta, still having trouble getting over that).

[Ulthane]

Did you?
Oh yes I remember, like when you proposed a one minute cd on a baseline derpony.

Yep, i did. And why did i do such a hurtful thing. Is it because i want the world to burn O.O maybe.

But the way they think it seems the only thing that can be taken seriously is if you propose or do any form of a buff with a trade off. The community from there once given a board with staggering views like that can say: wtf 1 min thats too much. Like you yourself just did. So to present a layout/opinion/feedback thats updated based on build that holds a logical train of thought yet has glaring contradictions from the community sparks more pointing to the real issues of the spec which you just did for me C: -hands you cookie-

[Firebert]

I read forums, I read guides, I'm knowledgeable about the changes. But as long as Blessings are how they currently are, I will never ever use one of them to buff a player other than myself. If that means I can't do organized raiding and can only LFR, then so be it.. but I will not legitimize Blizzard's shitty design by playing how they want me to play.

They need to be auras giving a buff based off the target's current role, not blessings IMO.

[Sungamnori]

They need to be auras giving a buff based off the target's current role, not blessings IMO.

They won't do that because then it's a raid-wide buff again and those are gone.

I'm just saying.. as long as casting it is combat-locked, as long as I don't have the choice of changing my buff to one player for a single target nuke phase and then another player for an aoe phase, or to cast it on someone else if my first target dies, then I will be the only one who benefits from my buff.

My damage will begin and end with me. If I die, so does my buff damage. If someone else dies but I live, then my buff damage continues.

[Reghame]

@ruiizu Wake of ashes has a 600% wpd co-efficient if im not mistaken, and then ashes to ashes has like a 900 or 960% AP co-efficient. This ability being on a 30 second cooldown that also gives you holypower is basically as strong (if not stronger since the nerfs) of bladestorm. Having a damaging skill like this is VERY good. + it also brings utility in the form of a 50% slow on a 6 second duration and if the target is undead or demon (which im betting a ton of mobs this expansion will be because.... legion) you stun them for 6 seconds (which is the longest AOE stun ATM, imagine manny imps that spawn every what 45 seconds? that WoA burst AND stun will give you a raid spot every time.)

TLDR wake of ashes and it's perk are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO good, maybe even too good. we shall see.

- - - Updated - - -

+ it gives you max holypower, thats OP man.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Rogues say hello with their Mark of Death.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Yep, i did. And why did i do such a hurtful thing. Is it because i want the world to burn O.O maybe.

But the way they think it seems the only thing that can be taken seriously is if you propose or do any form of a buff with a trade off. The community from there once given a board with staggering views like that can say: wtf 1 min thats too much. Like you yourself just did. So to present a layout/opinion/feedback thats updated based on build that holds a logical train of thought yet has glaring contradictions from the community sparks more pointing to the real issues of the spec which you just did for me C: -hands you cookie-

What you are proposing is:
"Please give me at least one, crippled, crooked and half-paralazyed arm. You can take my one and only leg in return, or cut specific pieces or fingers off."


There must be an absolute, bare minimum for everything.
If what UH DK's have is bare minimum, then we do not meet this level.
If what they have is not bare minimum, yet Ret and uh are both stated to be low mobility specs, then we clearly are even lower. Which obviously falls for a compensation of sorts.

Now do you feel compensated somehow?

[Deleted]

We'll have to see how we do on current content; Mr. Robot is not exactly a source I trust for real data. My experience on the beta doesn't seem to suggest to me that our AE is very bad, and I've played with other players. It's likely Divine Storm will get buffed if our AE is doing too poorly, as it's not even remotely close to ever being used over TV in single target, and currently not even really at two target (though I sometimes use it on two targets out of habit on the beta, still having trouble getting over that).

I would've used simcraft if it was available, but alas. Mr Robot is what we got for now.

A big problem for our AoE is the ramp up aswell. If wake of ashes isn't on cooldown, we need to build up the Holy power for the DS... unless we take divine hammer (wich is more like sustained aoe than burst aswell). What happens is that usually stuff is almost dead when you start your DS's. Gladly theres DP procs. Good 'ol DP. What would we be without you?!

- - - Updated - - -

@ruiizu Wake of ashes has a 600% wpd co-efficient if im not mistaken, and then ashes to ashes has like a 900 or 960% AP co-efficient. This ability being on a 30 second cooldown that also gives you holypower is basically as strong (if not stronger since the nerfs) of bladestorm. Having a damaging skill like this is VERY good. + it also brings utility in the form of a 50% slow on a 6 second duration and if the target is undead or demon (which im betting a ton of mobs this expansion will be because.... legion) you stun them for 6 seconds (which is the longest AOE stun ATM, imagine manny imps that spawn every what 45 seconds? that WoA burst AND stun will give you a raid spot every time.)

TLDR wake of ashes and it's perk are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO good, maybe even too good. we shall see.

- - - Updated - - -

+ it gives you max holypower, thats OP man.

I am guessing you are trying to take a jab, but it's failing completely because you have no knowledge of the mechanics other classes have. A fury warrior doesn't even need bladestorm to roll face. But it is stronger than wake for sure. You see, bladestorm works with their mastery. Not the same thing for us with WoA + DS.

[Teleros]

Really I think Blizzard should at least stop being stubborn about things. It's ok to do that when it warrants it but a lot of the times well it doesn't.

Depends on what they're being stubborn about .

= + =

Wake of ashes has a 600% wpd co-efficient if im not mistaken, and then ashes to ashes has like a 900 or 960% AP co-efficient.

Wake = 650% AP instant, and AtA = 900% AP over 6secs.

This ability being on a 30 second cooldown that also gives you holypower is basically as strong (if not stronger since the nerfs) of bladestorm.

145% WD every sec for 7secs = 1,015% WD total, vs 1,550% AP total. Arms can use their artefact weapon to have all targets hit benefit from Colossus Smash though.

In terms of damage (and ignoring the differing CDs), Bladestorm wins.

= + =

There must be an absolute, bare minimum for everything.
If what UH DK's have is bare minimum, then we do not meet this level.
If what they have is not bare minimum, yet Ret and uh are both stated to be low mobility specs, then we clearly are even lower. Which obviously falls for a compensation of sorts.

This.

[Ulthane]

What you are proposing is:
"Please give me at least one, crippled, crooked and half-paralazyed arm. You can take my one and only leg in return, or cut specific pieces or fingers off."


There must be an absolute, bare minimum for everything.
If what UH DK's have is bare minimum, then we do not meet this level.
If what they have is not bare minimum, yet Ret and uh are both stated to be low mobility specs, then we clearly are even lower. Which obviously falls for a compensation of sorts.

Now do you feel compensated somehow?

Well i want my arm.....

Real talk aside compensation would be the following
-SOV at 30 seconds, undispellable etc
-Judgment hitting 3 targets base
-A choice to improve pony
-The 75 row granting us tools that are worth while not crap
-Greater Blessings not being poo so players will demand you for them

You compensate crap like this with worthwhile tools.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

What if I told you...


We could chose something else other then pony for mobility(No Seal of Light doesn't count Blizzard god damn it)


/TheMatrixmeme

[minteK917]

Rogues say hello with their Mark of Death.

Mark of death is nothing like wake of ashes. It doesent even work with Deep stratagem. Its also in compettion with other talents, in some cases much better talents lol. Venom rush, DFA, master of shadows.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Mark of death is nothing like wake of ashes. It doesent even work with Deep stratagem. Its also in compettion with other talents, in some cases much better talents lol. Venom rush, DFA, master of shadows.

In terms of how it functions, it really is a similar ability. It's just an attack that brings up the *combo points*.