Should the EU dissolve?

[nonameelf]

No, everything is going to shit. Did you just land on planet earth?

I don't think becoming a single nation is going to solve your refugee issues.

[CptEgo]

I don't think becoming a single nation is going to solve your refugee issues.

I meant money, there's no money. Closing borders won't help the economy.

[Elegiac]

I don't think becoming a single nation is going to solve your refugee issues.

No, but becoming a single state enables much more effective border control policies being implemented.

[nonameelf]

No, but becoming a single state enables much more effective border control policies being implemented.

Are the EU leaders even really concerned with border control? Doesn't sound like it, so I'm not sure why that would change by becoming a nation. It seems the individual nations are more concerned with borders than the EU is.

[Stacyrect]

If the EU were to change some of it's policies, it might stand. Currently, it is in a spiral of self-destruction and unless something changes, countries will keep leaving until the point of having an EU is basically worthless.

[Elegiac]

Are the EU leaders even really concerned with border control?

I can't imagine a situation in which they wouldn't be.

Doesn't sound like it, so I'm not sure why that would change by becoming a nation. It seems the individual nations are more concerned with borders than the EU is.

Because refusing to give the EU border jurisdiction and then claiming their inaction is proof that they don't care is totally not bullshit logic.

The issue is that individual nations aren't concerned; specifically, Greece.

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If the EU were to change some of it's policies

Which ones specifically.

[Azgraal]

Fuck the EU. Fuck Merkel. Fuck the European pipe-dream. Fuck the European Federation plan. Fuck them all to smithereens.

[Elegiac]

Fuck the EU. Fuck Merkel. Fuck the European pipe-dream. Fuck the European Federation plan. Fuck them all to smithereens.

You are aware the EU is the only reason Portugal's winemaking industry is competitive, right? And that is about the -least- beneficial thing they do.

[Aeula]

I would personally like to see it dissolve. Sure we get rich by working together, but the loss of sovereignty and having each country ruled by some far away bureaucrats who've never even been there doesn't sit well with me. No matter how much money we get in return.

[Elegiac]

I would personally like to see it dissolve. Sure we get rich by working together, but the loss of sovereignty and having each country ruled by some far away bureaucrats who've never even been there doesn't sit well with me. No matter how much money we get in return.

What on earth is the point of 'sovereignty' if the vast majority of people are significantly better off materially.

[Collegeguy]

Look at all the madness that one little jaylock can cause. So many manly tears.

[nonameelf]

Because refusing to give the EU border jurisdiction and then claiming their inaction is proof that they don't care is totally not bullshit logic.

The issue is that individual nations aren't concerned; specifically, Greece.

Hungary closed off their borders, I'm sure other nations can do the same or similar if they want. The fact that they don't shows they don't particularly care, at least their current government leaders. They can't blame Greece.

Plus, if the majority of countries aren't adopting refugee regulation then why would they suddenly support that in a unified Europe? Countries like Hungary would just get outvoted and then forced to open their borders to be saddled with refugees. Because we all know the refugees would be shipped off to poor eastern European countries.

What on earth is the point of 'sovereignty' if the vast majority of people are significantly better off materially.

Because some have different priorities. Austria's National Day is a celebration of their constitutional neutrality. That's something they'd no longer have if they were just a state in the EU. Meanwhile countries like France and Germany are big NATO allies. Different countries have different priorities.

Not everything in the world is about being monetarily better and the EU as an economic union is already benefiting the monetary parts of the member countries without forcing them to give up their sovereignty.

[Elegiac]

Hungary closed off their borders, I'm sure other nations can do the same or similar if they want. The fact that they don't shows they don't particularly care, at least their current government leaders. They can't blame Greece.

Or because they being on the top see things that you clearly don't. Namely that there's legal reasons why they cannot close off the borders for an extended period and also because the imposition of border controls in a free trade area hugely complicates things.

Plus, if the majority of countries aren't adopting refugee regulation then why would they suddenly support that in a unified Europe? Countries like Hungary would just get outvoted and then forced to open their borders to be saddled with refugees. Because we all know the refugees would be shipped off to poor eastern European countries.

That's 'democracy', so tough shit mister Brexit.

And again, it's stupid to assume that EU leaders do not believe border control is an issue.

[nonameelf]

That's 'democracy', so tough shit mister Brexit.

They would go from having control of their own lands and people to having almost no control due to how small they are. Sounds like a great deal for them.

[Elegiac]

They would go from having control of their own lands and people to having almost no control due to how small they are. Sounds like a great deal for them.

I dunno Davey, it's almost as if there's never been a political structure designed to preserve some measure of power in smaller states within a federation.....

[Aeula]

What on earth is the point of 'sovereignty' if the vast majority of people are significantly better off materially.

Some things are more important than material wealth. Being able to have your country run by someone who actually lives there is one of them. Being able to have a sense of pride in where you live is another.

[Elegiac]

Some things are more important than material wealth. Being able to have your country run by someone who actually lives there is one of them. Being able to have a sense of pride in where you live is another.

Why? What objective benefit does it accomplish besides being a form of emotional masturbation.

Let me answer it for you; nationalism is a bullshit scam concocted by the middle class to put themselves in power so they can oppress those beneath them in exactly the same (but usually worse) fashion as the state they secede from.

[Aeula]

Why? What objective benefit does it accomplish besides being a form of emotional masturbation.

Let me answer it for you; nationalism is a bullshit scam concocted by the middle class to put themselves in power so they can oppress those beneath them in exactly the same (but usually worse) fashion as the state they secede from.

Wow, didn't know it was conspiracy theory Saturday! But keep on trumpeting that horn if you want to buddy.

[nonameelf]

Why? What objective benefit does it accomplish besides being a form of emotional masturbation.

Let me answer it for you; nationalism is a bullshit scam concocted by the middle class to put themselves in power so they can oppress those beneath them in exactly the same (but usually worse) fashion as the state they secede from.

Um, but wouldn't a unified EU require nationalism to stay unified? You're just redirecting nationalism from countries to an entire continent. People don't stay unified just because you want them too. They have to feel like they belong to something and have a desire to improve it and take pride in improving it.

You must really hate nations like Switzerland and Norway who don't join the EU.

[Elegiac]

Wow, didn't know it was conspiracy theory Saturday! But keep on trumpeting that horn if you want to buddy.

Who said anything about conspiracy theories? It's not a centralised 'scheme', it's a mechanism of political control in exactly the same vein as, say, scapegoating minorities, or declaring war against a foreign power to distract from domestic ills.

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Um, but wouldn't a unified EU require nationalism to stay unified? You're just redirecting nationalism from countries to an entire continent. People don't stay unified just because you want them too. They have to feel like they belong to something and have a desire to improve it and take pride in improving it.

One can be critical of something but acknowledge its usefulness in accomplishing something.

And no, what you're saying is necessary is patriotism.

You must really hate nations like Switzerland and Norway who don't join the EU.

I do hate tax havens, yes.