German immigration costs revealed! 86 billion

[Theinquisition]

Assault and battery are already illegal, I'm not sure what your issue is.



Cool, Australia's immigration policy does none of these things.

As for your first point. Fair enough, you didn't necessarily say that it wasn't. I'm worried about the trend of not preventing violence against protestors by counter protestors as was demonstrated by police in Sacramento who allowed Fascist "anti-fascist" protestors assault White nationalists with baseball bats and etc.

Police stood by and watched it happen.

Now While I think both sides ideologies are shit, it doesn't mean that violence against one side or the other is appropriate, and the police not preventing violence sets a scary precedent.

[Shiny212]

I don't think the purpose was to make a profit.. You seem confused.

[matt4pack]

Germany has a very ageing population and the world lowest birth rate. Let that sink in. If you do not have any notions of sociology and the socio-economical requirement for a country to renew its populations generations after generations, then this subject is too hard for you.

The population is getting so old with the birth rate of Germans being so low, that unless Germany gets millions of workers in, they will face tremendous issues with health / pensions and the impact on the economy will be massive.

It sure as hell feel like huge gamble, but it is a bet for the future that Germany is taking and a bet that will pay off. But first the country need to invest before seeing the positive outcome in 20/30 years. Obviously the far right and racists dont see it that way, they only see the color of those newcomers.

Considering for that to work the immigrants need to be productive which isn't close to being the case. All that's happening is money is being siphoned to these immigrants so it's going to be a double whammy instead of just a single issue.

[Elegiac]

Considering for that to work the immigrants need to be productive which isn't close to being the case. All that's happening is money is being siphoned to these immigrants so it's going to be a double whammy instead of just a single issue.

Are they spending money? Yes?

Then they're being productive.

[Forogil]

Well then it's 40 Billion... Someone in the thread said, that it was 20 Billion

Still, 40 Billion € isn't a lot for Germany... The problem is the management of the Situation, rather than costs

It's 20 billion € at the federal level, and additionally 20 billion € at the state levels - total 40 billion €; or more if there are other costs.

The management is important, but consider that it is 40 billion € per year for the coming years (seems like above 2% of GDP), for the ones that primarily arrived last year. If the immigration had continued this year it would have been 80 billion € per year ... Based on that it isn't strange that immigration to Germany has been practically stopped (assuming that the previous number of > 1 million asylum-seekers last year is true; even if only about 600k were fully registered).
That also highlights a huge problem of management - they are still working through the backlog of asylum-applications from last year.

[matt4pack]

Are they spending money? Yes?

Then they're being productive.

We might as well just let the entire 3rd world come over if all it takes is giving them money to spend to spur the economy. What could go wrong with that. You've got everything figured out.

[Theinquisition]

Are they spending money? Yes?

Then they're being productive.

they aren't creating wealth, they are just shuffling money that was given to them.

[May90]

I think he's spot on, at least in part.

Freedom of speech is eroding. Look at the trend of "microaggresions" on college campuses, where those with dissenting opinions are shouted down, assaulted, or threatened with legal actions.

Things like "microagressions" barely affect anyone at all; I haven't heard this term in real life a single time, it is mostly an Internet outrage phenomenon. I've never felt my freedom of speech limited in any way; granted, I never judge people for their race, gender, nationality, religion, etc., so perhaps that's the secret.

Most people criticizing the modern state of freedom of speech just regret that they can no longer openly say outright bigoted discriminatory things without getting backlashed. Which is strange: if you value freedom of speech so much, then why don't you value freedom of others to criticize bigoted statements? No one threatens your freedom of speech legally, people simply do not tolerate you saying certain things and use their freedom of speech to express their dislike of it.

I'm not saying that it was a smart vote - or that the number of jobs are fixed in a longer perspective. UK leaving EU to pay more for less influence isn't the best of ideas.

But neither is it smart to tell people in parts with high unemployment and immigrants that immigration isn't a problem - and that immigrants increases the number of jobs; and at the same time say that UK managed to get an exception from EU to limit immigration.

On a similar level it isn't smart to say that German immigration will cost 20 billion € per year, when it cost 40 billion € per year (federal and state); and that immigration is beneficial, which assumes that integration works - and Germany haven't managed so well with the Turkish gastarbeiters.

I think we can agree that poor immigration policies cause the problem, not immigration itself.

[SomeChris]

Just to add another thought: If we had closed borders and not let anybody in, these people would be refugees anyway. They just had moved to another place, for example Turkey or Lebanon. Lebanon has 4.6 million citizen and already about 1 million Syrian refugees there. Turkey has around 80 million citizen and 2.7 million refugees. So both countries have taken a much heavier burden than us.
We all know, that if a country esp. in that region breaks down, there would be consequences for us all, so there might be a hidden cost for not letting a refugee in. This is difficult to calculate though.

[Rennadrel]

Merkel should sell everything she own to pay some of that.

She will sell your first born daughter to a refugee for 100,000€ a year :P

/Sarcasm for those with broken detectors.

[Barnabas]

Did someone expect a humanitarian effort in this scale to bring profits? It was never the point of it.

You have to compare labor costs to see the benefits of with cheap immigrant labor and without. Common sense would tell you that cheap immigrant labor pool is less. So yes businesses are more profitable as a result. Even the majority of europes food is from the backs of indentured servants.

[Hana Song]

So in order to combat extremists, we should listen to what extremists on the other side are saying.

Right.

You will push people who want a change to the extreme on the other side if they can't get a change without it

[Ravenblade]

So why not do it like Australia? Say if they need doctors, they'll let in 30k doctors this year. If they need welders the next, they will let in a certain amount of those. Germany is a wealthy country too. They can easily do the same and get people who actually benefit their society instead of uneducated third world people who dont even share their values.

For once because there is a lack of people in every sector and because there's been a (failed) campaign to hire skilled worker en masse from abroad (read: within the EU and the Asian market). The latter is due to the fact that the German job market is and always was very inward, only in recent years it has been lightly opened up. The vast majority of jobs are still regional especially where jobs and succession of job positions matter.

There is also the misunderstanding that the refugee crisis was created for cheap jobs, if paying billions as opposed to hire for free within the EU is considered cheap then it's not too difficult to believe that the crisis was created for jobs too. The hopes that there's sufficient skilled workers among them have been dampened long ago, the retention rate will be much lower than 5% in the end but it doesn't really have to be more than that in order to offset a temporary lack of birthrates. As I said before they have already been hiring and training personnel which came from much farther than the Middle East, shared neither culture nor language with us and owned no skills either, example being the medical sector.

The major reason for why people could develop parallel societies before was the very poor integration policies if there were any. The German state has been too lax even when conservatives reigned (so it isn't a relic of evil left-green-contaminated policies) because the laws were pretty simple: You were either allowed to stay or not. That was it. Thankfully they started to make legal moves into that direction because they realized that it's better to spend costs ahead instead of having to pay the costs of cleaning up after.

[Forogil]

You have to compare labor costs to see the benefits of with cheap immigrant labor and without. Common sense would tell you that cheap immigrant labor pool is less. So yes businesses are more profitable as a result. Even the majority of europes food is from the backs of indentured servants.

You seemed to have missed the development during the last couple of centuries, so a short summary:

Starting around 1750 people in Europe began improve productivity in agriculture - meaning that fewer and fewer people were needed - to produce food for more and more. That paved the way for the industrial revolution, the mass armies needed for major wars, and the modern states. It's kind of hard to discuss current state of the world without that knowledge.
Thus most food in Europe is produced by industrial farming - using machines - not indentured servants. Basically if less than 2% of the population can produce the food for more than 100% it makes sense that those 2% are as efficient as possible, not using indentured servants.

There are still some minor food-categories being farmed in less efficient ways (but robots picking e.g. apples/wine-grapes are getting better); that is usually seasonal labor and in some cases people from e.g. Asia are flown in for that - and leave after the season.
Seasonal labour is by definition seasonal, and thus there is no need to import people permanently - and still Portugal is more suited for that than Germany. Portugal has actually been in the news wanting a larger part of the asylum-seekers re-distributed within EU - to work in their farms, but last I checked the asylum-seekers were unwilling to go to Portugal where there are farm-jobs waiting. (And that is still just a couple of thousands, not a million.)

(There are some other work-categories that people claim there are actually "indentured servants" working their backs off in EU; but the majority of asylum-seekers are a bad fit for those jobs.)
--
So, cheap labour to produce food is one of the worst explanations for the German immigration.

[Deleted]

Did someone expect a humanitarian effort in this scale to bring profits? It was never the point of it.

The politicians have been selling that lie to us for 10 years and everyone who disagreed got labeled a racist and islamophobe. Many lost their jobs because they spoke out against the lies. If it was never the point why work so hard to tell us how profitable immigration is and how great it is? They commissioned liberal think tanks to produce propaganda materiel to show us how profitable it is and they censored government agencies who showed the truth.

[Forogil]

You will push people who want a change to the extreme on the other side if they can't get a change without it

Yes, and the idea of permanent "grand coalitions" as in Austria can also create a corrupt state where the extremes are the only ones in opposition.

- - - Updated - - -

I think we can agree that poor immigration policies cause the problem, not immigration itself.

Well, the most obvious question is then: what are the current immigration policies in Germany aiming for?
Is there even a basic direction: integration of the asylum-seekers in German society, return them after the war, or?

[Barnabas]

You seemed to have missed the development during the last couple of centuries, so a short summary:

Starting around 1750 people in Europe began improve productivity in agriculture - meaning that fewer and fewer people were needed - to produce food for more and more. That paved the way for the industrial revolution, the mass armies needed for major wars, and the modern states. It's kind of hard to discuss current state of the world without that knowledge.
Thus most food in Europe is produced by industrial farming - using machines - not indentured servants. Basically if less than 2% of the population can produce the food for more than 100% it makes sense that those 2% are as efficient as possible, not using indentured servants.

There are still some minor food-categories being farmed in less efficient ways (but robots picking e.g. apples/wine-grapes are getting better); that is usually seasonal labor and in some cases people from e.g. Asia are flown in for that - and leave after the season.
Seasonal labour is by definition seasonal, and thus there is no need to import people permanently - and still Portugal is more suited for that than Germany. Portugal has actually been in the news wanting a larger part of the asylum-seekers re-distributed within EU - to work in their farms, but last I checked the asylum-seekers were unwilling to go to Portugal where there are farm-jobs waiting. (And that is still just a couple of thousands, not a million.)

(There are some other work-categories that people claim there are actually "indentured servants" working their backs off in EU; but the majority of asylum-seekers are a bad fit for those jobs.)
--
So, cheap labour to produce food is one of the worst explanations for the German immigration.

I've missed no development. You are trying to minimize. The numbers will increase. http://www.globalslaveryindex.org/region/europe/

[Deleted]

Yeah I'm sure this shit will work out well for us in europe, thanks germans.

Long live the fourth reich EU, we can't vote for shit about what we want but we can live with their decisions.

[Deleted]

Yeah I'm sure this shit will work out well for us in europe, thanks germans.

Long live the fourth reich EU, we can't vote for shit about what we want but we can live with their decisions.

Everytime I remember I voted for us to enter the EU I want to gauge my eyes off and shoot my knee

[primalmatter]

Yeah I'm sure this shit will work out well for us in europe, thanks germans.

Long live the fourth reich EU, we can't vote for shit about what we want but we can live with their decisions.

Maybe it won't be so bad to be a part of the reich? Who knows in a strange way you might just get a united Europe just not in the way you expected.