[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Snegovik]

In terms of scaling, stuff based on weapon damage always scales better than stuff based on AP. If we simplify a minute and say AP is based on armour iLevel/quality, then weapon damage is based on weapon iLevel/quality + armour iLevel/quality. More specifically, I believe the formula is:

Attack Power / 14 = +1 weapon DPS

So you have the usual increases due to iLevel, plus the above formula.

+ + +

So in terms of Legion, our AP-based abilities are just:

Judgement
Justicar's Vengeance
Wake of Ashes
Ashes to Ashes
Execution Sentence
Hammer of Reckoning
Consecration
Blade of Wrath DoT
Blinding Light
Shield of Vengeance

(Technically some of these may be Spell Power not Attack Power, but for Rets these are equal, so big deal)

Of course, some of these on the list are pretty irrelevant - so in terms of our core rotation there's only Judgement and maybe the BoW DoT to worry about (I don't think ES will be used much, and JV and Wake I'm not sure count as part of the core rotation). Everything else is based on weapon damage - compare that to WoD Ret:

Judgement
Exorcism
Censure DoT

Factor in the fact that WoD Ret only has CS & TV/DS for weapon-damage based abilities, and that we don't have BoJ on live, and... yeah I think Legion Ret will scale better.

As we say in Russia, its better to have a pigeon in your hands than an eagle in the skies =), so until Legion goes live and Blizzard won't fuk or nerf Ret, I won't believe that Ret will be one of the Best end game scaling Specs, hence until then the eagle will remain in the skies

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I guess it depends on the number of targets. Greater Judgment will spread the debuff to a total of 4 targets and if they're new adds, it will always crit. Wake of Ashes doesn't actually do damage that's inferior to Bladestorm though, that's the point me and Reg have both been trying to make. For the number of GCDs that Bladestorm costs (4), you get just as much from Wake + Judgment + DSx2 if not more because of armor. And it's more forgiving because the shorter CD allows you to handle adds more frequently.

The reason so many Wars use BS and also the reason it is superior to ashes (from PvP pov) because you can use it as a "oh shit" button, you become immune to cc,snare so if u know a inc DF or KS + burst inc from RMD, u can pop the BS and get the hell away behind pillar, same thing if enemy healer is low on HP and u want to score a kill, pop BS and no1 can peel or cc you, that is why it is so popular and usable in PvP. Ret on other hand =) one of the easiest dps classes to peel and cc, hence even though ashes does similar dmg to BS, but it is vastly inferior to it in PvP.

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As i posted a while while back, i believe Retribution should have a passive ability (as our lvl 100 talent instead of Holy Wrath) that the more HP we are missing, we gain higher dmg % + haste. So lets say if we are missing 45% hp, our dmg increased by 15% and Haste increased by 15%. if we are missing 90% hp our dmg increased by 30% and haste by 30%. Of course numbers need to be adjusted but something like that. since THIS will be a true Retribution: If you choose to tunnel Ret, then fine we will punish you with every extra % of our hp is missing ';..;' mwuahaha let the blood flow free!

[Ashelorh]

As i posted a while while back, i believe Retribution should have a passive ability (as our lvl 100 talent instead of Holy Wrath) that the more HP we are missing, we gain higher dmg % + haste. So lets say if we are missing 45% hp, our dmg increased by 15% and Haste increased by 15%. if we are missing 90% hp our dmg increased by 30% and haste by 30%. Of course numbers need to be adjusted but something like that. since THIS will be a true Retribution: If you choose to tunnel Ret, then fine we will punish you with every extra % of our hp is missing ';..;' mwuahaha let the blood flow free!

That would be worse than holy wrath. At least with holy wrath you use it and can be healed afterwards. With a talent like that to get maximum use out of it, you have to remain at low health.

[Snegovik]

That would be worse than holy wrath. At least with holy wrath you use it and can be healed afterwards. With a talent like that to get maximum use out of it, you have to remain at low health.

Yep, exactly why it would be good for PvP, since Ret is a Kill target for past 9 years of Arena, 95% of all games ';..;'.
PVE wise it would not be as great talent as other 2, but for pvp where you are constantly being trained, it would be a good a much better talent than HW, since you dont have to drop very low to benefit from it, with this you can sit at 55% hp and get for example 15% passive dmg+ haste buff which is nice.

[Aerknard]

Yep, exactly why it would be good for PvP, since Ret is a Kill target for past 9 years of Arena, 95% of all games ';..;'.
PVE wise it would not be as great talent as other 2, but for pvp where you are constantly being trained, it would be a good a much better talent than HW, since you dont have to drop very low to benefit from it, with this you can sit at 55% hp and get for example 15% passive dmg+ haste buff which is nice.

I just hope Blizz never put your idea to DH. You know what Blizz said right?
"Class Fantasy"

[Snegovik]

I just hope Blizz never put your idea to DH. You know what Blizz said right?
"Class Fantasy"

I actually loled at work, as i read your post, since Blizzard can actually do that lol XD and call it "Balanced" due to "Class Fantasy". Lets hope it will never happen, besides DH already have good dmg, in my opinion they need more short cd Defensive abilities.

[Lamortykins]

How much haste is necessary to get the CD of Judgement under 8 seconds//Does anyone think we're gonna end up having a haste soft cap for 100% judgement uptime?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I recall it was 40% haste. Not sure tbh.

[Alindra]

How much haste is necessary to get the CD of Judgement under 8 seconds//Does anyone think we're gonna end up having a haste soft cap for 100% judgement uptime?

It would take 50% haste.

FinalCooldown = BaseCooldown / (1 + Haste%)
8 = 12 / (1 + Haste%)
8 * (1 + Haste%) = 12
(1 + Haste%) = 12 / 8
(1 + Haste%) = 1.5

The 1 is just the base cooldown, and so the leftover 0.5 is 50% haste.

[Ashelorh]

Yep, exactly why it would be good for PvP, since Ret is a Kill target for past 9 years of Arena, 95% of all games ';..;'.
PVE wise it would not be as great talent as other 2, but for pvp where you are constantly being trained, it would be a good a much better talent than HW, since you dont have to drop very low to benefit from it, with this you can sit at 55% hp and get for example 15% passive dmg+ haste buff which is nice.

Why not put in in the PVP tree? Also I don't think it'd be good. You don't want to remain at 55% health or whatever to get good use of a talent

[Snegovik]

Why not put in in the PVP tree? Also I don't think it'd be good. You don't want to remain at 55% health or whatever to get good use of a talent

Well because i may argue same as for Holy Wrath as "it can be fun for lvling" (but in reality i just want to keep 30sec judgement debuff from pvp tree). Well no1 wants to get trained as Ret in Arena but ppl do train you all the time, and most of the time your hp jumps between 1% and 80% =)

[Merrena]

Well because i may argue same as for Holy Wrath as "it can be fun for lvling" (but in reality i just want to keep 30sec judgement debuff from pvp tree). Well no1 wants to get trained as Ret in Arena but ppl do train you all the time, and most of the time your hp jumps between 1% and 80% =)

Fun for leveling the whole 10 levels since it's a 100 talent and Divine Purpose being more fun anyway.

[Snegovik]

Fun for leveling the whole 10 levels since it's a 100 talent and Divine Purpose being more fun anyway.

Not saying its fun, but i am saying it will be as "fun" as Holy Wrath

[Teleros]

As we say in Russia, its better to have a pigeon in your hands than an eagle in the skies =), so until Legion goes live and Blizzard won't fuk or nerf Ret, I won't believe that Ret will be one of the Best end game scaling Specs, hence until then the eagle will remain in the skies

I have no idea if it's the best-scaling, or even in the top half of best-scaling specs - I'm merely noting that it should scale better than in MoP / WoD, and better than specs (IIRC Assassination rogues were mentioned) which place more reliance on AP/SP rather than weapon damage (assuming no numbers are tuned later in the expansion of course ).

[Deleted]

While I´m not sure about scaling I´m pretty damn sure we still won´t bet on the upper halve of skada, not counting 3 mights on blizz lovechild(s) (if they actually work for a change), if they can do anything about it.

Hands of light -5% dmg with 2-handed weapons #balancing #classfantasy #paybackforWotLK

On a more serious note is it intended that judge stops chaining when you actually kill something with it? It happened to me a couple of times while questing. I judge target A (10%) expecting the debuff to chain of to target B or C. But what happens is that A dies I´m sitting on a judge cooldown, wake ready and feeling bad to use a spender without debuff up.

[Deleted]

This, straight up this.

Having thought about it more id be all for Holy Wrath existing as a baseline ability that cost % health to use. Our dps version of Light of the Martyr.
t.

I don't think it should be baseline. It will be bad enough using shield of Vengeance offensively, I don't want to an ability that is causing me to hurt myself in an even more extreme way to do damage - that sounds much more like a warlock thing. I agree that it would be better mechanically, but it would still not sit right with me at all from either a lore or gameplay point of view.

[Ulthane]

I don't think it should be baseline. It will be bad enough using shield of Vengeance offensively, I don't want to an ability that is causing me to hurt myself in an even more extreme way to do damage - that sounds much more like a warlock thing. I agree that it would be better mechanically, but it would still not sit right with me at all from either a lore or gameplay point of view.

I get ya 100% on this. Im just looking at this from a different angle but I suppose the point I really am making is that no matter how I view this it all comes down to that Holy Wrath should not be a talent at all what so ever. As a talent its dead and useless, the only "talent" spot it could be "viable" in is in fact PvP because you will get nuked in PvP so therefore it would find the most use.

Holy Wrath IF they want to keep it for any PvE reason should be moved to a baseline ability or infact redesigned or just removed all together.

In terms of SoV since we lack any proper defensive CD for mechanics this would be the ability to put on a 30 - 60 second CD and the deflection trait should indeed increase the absorb. Without Divine Protection we will find ourselves vulnerable to unavoidable mechanics and thus take increased damage and part of me believes its that bs that made them go: OH lets give them Holy Wrath because that will compensate for taking a metric ass ton of extra damage because they can't avoid anything.

[Deleted]

In Ret's case, the differences are not that small. Always delaying Judgment to wait until you build to five, seemingly not always correctly syncing Execution Sentence with Judgment, and a few extra things with the builders, add up a pretty significant delta. I don't know how good Fury's list is, but as I understand it the spec is not as completely revamped as Retribution is, so it is likely closer to reality.

In general, though, it really sounds like your argument is tuning. And sure, spec tuning might be out of whack. Some specs are almost certainly over the top at the moment (assassination rogue anyone?). But be careful drawing strong conclusions from tools that are in such an early stage.

We were talking about AoE... not single target. In an AoE fight you don't take ES.

But well... we shall see.

[Deleted]

I don't think it should be baseline. It will be bad enough using shield of Vengeance offensively, I don't want to an ability that is causing me to hurt myself in an even more extreme way to do damage - that sounds much more like a warlock thing. I agree that it would be better mechanically, but it would still not sit right with me at all from either a lore or gameplay point of view.

correct me if I am wrong but we had an ability called "seal of blood" in the past which added additional holy damage to all melee attacks, but the paladin lost health equal to 10% total of the damage inflicted. So it is not that far fetched tbh!

[Morally Grey Storm]

correct me if I am wrong but we had an ability called "seal of blood" in the past which added additional holy damage to all melee attacks, but the paladin lost health equal to 10% total of the damage inflicted. So it is not that far fetched tbh!

and the backlash was exact reason it got removed.

Now here, with Equalolity, you have to invent ays to hurt yourself close to point of almost dead in order to use this ability at all.
It's incredibly worse than Seal of the Martyr.

[ruiizu]

and the backlash was exact reason it got removed.

Now here, with Equalolity, you have to invent ays to hurt yourself close to point of almost dead in order to use this ability at all.
It's incredibly worse than Seal of the Martyr.

Backlash is not the reason it got removed. It got removed because Blizzard wanted to add ramp up time to our damage and so removed it and forced us to use Seal of Truth instead. Seal of Blood and Seal of Command were both really good and had absolutely no lead time, and Holy Power didn't exist yet, so instead they dumped our big DPS seal and slightly buffed the "tank" Seal, then called it a DPS one. But it required all 5 stacks to actually get going, meaning we had to build it up on targets.

Please stop perpetuating this nonsense about Seal of Blood. It's not the first time and it's never been true. Ever.