[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[bloodmoth13]

Not entirely. Whilst CC can compensate in PvP, there is an upper limit to how much CC you can put out, simply because a target that cannot respond is a target that is about to unleash a stream of invective on the official forums :P . Additionally, some CC types are anti-DPS uptime - fear effects for melee classes, for example.

Right, good point about CC being the opposite of DPS uptime, as it is something that stops DPS from a target.
Ok, here is a paradigm for PVP, class A is mobile but susceptible to slows and roots, class B is immobile, but immune to slows and roots, both fight a target with slows and roots, who has more uptime? who deals more dps in that case?

What im thinking is giving ret massive compensation in this regard to allow them to ignore all slows and such, which could wind up making them just as mobile as another class with mobility in their own way, i mean a feral druid running about with 130 ms, but getting slowed to 100 ms would move at the same speed as a pally with 100 ms, of course pally doesnt have dashes or anything, but that is a different problem.

In PvE though, CC almost never works on things you need to kill (ie, everything that's not easy trash in a dungeon/raid). In addition, mobility also lets you escape bad things, both in PvE and PvP. A mage needs mobility because he's not tanky - a warlock needs it a lot less because he's tanky.

Yeah this has always bothered me, that half of a players toolkit doesnt work on targets you want to use them on. Id be happier with PVP elements bleeding into PVE, but that winds up with abusable situations and utility stacking so i understand why its kept separate. In that case, a boss running away from the party negatively affects immobile classes, more than others, so then you get into a situation where you either nerf the mobile classes damage to even them out with the immobile ones, or offer them different utility that is comparible. CC isnt applicable in this case, because of cheese mechanics and they would benefit everyone else just as much, CC immunity is fine, but rarely is used and requires special mechanics, i think lastly you are left with either burst, or range. I think range is moderately thematic on a ret pally, but i dont want them to become a ranged dps class.

Abilities with charges or classes with energy i think function well when kited, ironically the classes with the best mobility too, as their dps can be pooled, or rather short bursts of low uptime dont negatively affect their output, paladins on the other hand build resources from uptime, which they are denied, so thats kind of a terrible paradigm, so they are punished double by not having mobility, which isnt very good... being able to pool resources outside of uptime is a really good way to deal with no mobility, but it tends to be something that immobile classes never have. That system lets damage be the same on stationary fights, and also be more useful on mobility fights.

Giving Ret more mobility is not the same as making it into a carbon copy of another class (though Blizzard are in favour of that anyway, given how Judgement / mastery is in Legion a sucky version of Colossus Smash / mastery from Arms warriors).

For example, suppose you gave Ret an Intercept clone as a baseline ability. Say a 30sec CD... Ret can now close gaps reliably and quickly - but at the same time, he's not the ping-pong ball formerly known as Fury - or indeed anywhere close.

Mobility isn't a binary thing, it's more like a sliding scale. Ret happens to be so close to the bottom that it's pretty absurd, when other classes are so much higher up.

Ok, sure its not the same as making it a copy, but if they retain what makes them unique but also get tools that make other classes unique, then the other classes need compensation, so they get defensive CDs or CC or what have you. Its a slippery slope argument, sure, but its what happened in the past, players hated the whole class homogenity that happened, but at the same time they demanded it, mobile classes want mobility unique to them, immobile classes want mobility so that they can compete with the mobile classes, so the players are presented with this false dilemma where they either give everyone mobility and balance accordingly, or make immobile classes way higher dps to compensate, my argument is just that there are other options worth exploring here that can allow ret to compete while not making it mobile and keeping identities distinct.

I am starting to see judgement as a bit of a bigger problem now, it needs to sync up with TV and so on, but it should really function as the compensation for a lack of mobility and be an ability with range that you cast when you can.

Mechanically though it's nothing special. At least, not without Prot-exclusive talents.

Yeah its a glorified dash for sure, but its still cool as hell imo.

[Lamortykins]

I will take a poop animation sprint on shorter cd that grands you immunity to movement impairing affects, like several melees have over our shiny pony of failure.

Uhh...hand of freedom?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Uhh...hand of freedom?

That basically removes any slows or what not. That's about it. A PVP talent makes it increase your movement speed for a duration but...PVE doesn't have it.


#BringbackPursuitofJustice

[bloodmoth13]

I will take a poop animation sprint on shorter cd that grands you immunity to movement impairing affects, like several melees have over our shiny pony of failure.

I get that a lot of ppl care about animations and how cool they look (so do i, but to a minor degree). I believe animations should not "balance" out against our capability and a toolkit to preform on par with other top dogs in the playground. Hence, i care for results =) rather than how cool an ability looks. As CT Fletcher likes to say: you have a diet not for the taste, but for the results it will give you, stfu and eat that shit! Lol, i am same way when it comes to WoW balancing/specs: I play a spec for a set expectation aka i want to be able to kill with ease because i outskill them on my Ret =) not being kited by them cuz my only REAL gap closer is 45 sec cd.

Ok, so your problem is that its not as good as others?

Doesnt make the ability bad, if ret are supposed to be immobile and this breaks the rules for them, and allows the to utilise all the awesome shit they should get in compensation, then it doesnt need to double up on bonus mobility stuff, besides dont we already have hand of freedom for that?

Still, i operate on the assumption that compensation will be given if the class underperforms, i may very well be wrong on that, but if they do fall too far behind there should be data to back it up to make a case.

Never said that animations are good substitutes for balance, if its a poor ability, then they can buff it, i dunno i just dont see anything as final.

[Snegovik]

Ok, so your problem is that its not as good as others?

Doesnt make the ability bad, if ret are supposed to be immobile and this breaks the rules for them, and allows the to utilise all the awesome shit they should get in compensation, then it doesnt need to double up on bonus mobility stuff, besides dont we already have hand of freedom for that?

Still, i operate on the assumption that compensation will be given if the class underperforms, i may very well be wrong on that, but if they do fall too far behind there should be data to back it up to make a case.

Never said that animations are good substitutes for balance, if its a poor ability, then they can buff it, i dunno i just dont see anything as final.

Well i wouldn't classify a poor balancing over a video game character as my "problem" =) my problems is how to break 400% of my weight on deadlifts now that is a problem in my life, but not this =). Merely pointing out a poor balance, its like Blizzard expects Rets to be this 0-mobility , low range, low utility, low survival melee DPS without a proper tools =) and expect us to perform well and “counter mages” (from their blue post). Reminds me of WWII when 7 Russians were given 4 bullets each and 1 Riffle among all of them and were told to charge German's defense lines with machine guns blazing.
I am not saying the ability is “bad” simply stating that as of now, Ret spec was designed to perform poorly and inefficient in PvP at least, and we need something to compensate us for it, as you said yourself CC, or mobility, or utility and Ret lacks in all 3 departments. (but many PvE folk also stated that lack of mobility will be a hefty toll to bare)

- - - Updated - - -

Uhh...hand of freedom?

Greetings my dear PvE friend =), in rated pvp freedom is dispelled, purged or SS with in 1-2 globals, even if u duel mages, i have a macro to cancel the freedom after 1st global of its use, to prevent them from using it against me

[YIRIC4]

Is there a stat priority list of some kind for pre patch ret? Im assumign haste to a certain point and rest into mastery?

[Kabsal]

Is there a stat priority list of some kind for pre patch ret? Im assumign haste to a certain point and rest into mastery?

At this point it's too early to say. Haste is certainly nice, and mastery makes Judgment and finishers hit HARD, but we can't yet know whether we should go pure haste, haste to a threshold, or even pure mastery. I'm guessing it'll be pure haste in the end, but no sims backing it up means it's pure speculation.

[Lamortykins]

Does the +100% bonus stun damage from Justicar's Vengeance work on bosses who get stunned from mechanics - more specifically, bosses like Rocketspark and Borka in Grimrail Depot. Rocketspark gets stunned and takes 100% extra damage from all sources for a few seconds, so...are we looking at quadruple damage from JV, potentially 8x with a crit? Assuming it's multiplicative.

[Reghame]

Does the +100% bonus stun damage from Justicar's Vengeance work on bosses who get stunned from mechanics - more specifically, bosses like Rocketspark and Borka in Grimrail Depot. Rocketspark gets stunned and takes 100% extra damage from all sources for a few seconds, so...are we looking at quadruple damage from JV, potentially 8x with a crit? Assuming it's multiplicative.

yes it does..... yes it does :^)

[Deleted]

At this point it's too early to say. Haste is certainly nice, and mastery makes Judgment and finishers hit HARD, but we can't yet know whether we should go pure haste, haste to a threshold, or even pure mastery. I'm guessing it'll be pure haste in the end, but no sims backing it up means it's pure speculation.

It will probably be a balance of all stats, just like every spec. That is because their individual budget changes according to how much you already have. There will probably be a priority list for when they are in similar levels, at wich point something like haste may be better to go for first.

[Matt0193]

yes it does..... yes it does :^)

Expect that to change. Ret can't have nice things.

[Aerknard]

I was looking through my talent tree and found a really cool ability. "Deals Holy damage to up to 4 enemies within 10 yards equal to 200% of your missing health. Deals 50% of missing health against enemy players." This effectively removes the judgement mechanic, because you can just kill yourself and stop having to deal with this rotation.

Lol, dude it's really truly marvelously cool ability.

Greetings my dear PvE friend =), in rated pvp freedom is dispelled, purged or SS with in 1-2 globals, even if u duel mages, i have a macro to cancel the freedom after 1st global of its use, to prevent them from using it against me

how do you usually get the macro for the new expansion ?

[Snegovik]

how do you usually get the macro for the new expansion ?

Not sure if i understood you right, what you mean by macro for the new expansion? I just manually type my macros /cast X /cancel X /Targetlasttarget

[Aerknard]

Not sure if i understood you right, what you mean by macro for the new expansion? I just manually type my macros /cast X /cancel X /Targetlasttarget

Usually I find macro on icy vein or battle helper. But sometimes I can't find macro that others using. I'm assuming those site only provide standard macro not complete macro for everything. My roommate told me macro and addon may differ for every expansion. That's why when legion start I need to redo all my macro and check my addon.

[Snegovik]

Usually I find macro on icy vein or battle helper. But sometimes I can't find macro that others using. I'm assuming those site only provide standard macro not complete macro for everything. My roommate told me macro and addon may differ for every expansion. That's why when legion start I need to redo all my macro and check my addon.

Yes addons do differ, that’s why you have to upload/update them with every new xpac 100%. I don’t pve, so I have very simply macros Arena 1,2,3; Party 1,2,3; target @ Focus /kick or Hoj and that’s about it, these ones do not change, since its based on the spell book abilities =)

P.S. I also have a macro for seal dancing, to keep up 3 out of 4 buffs but its only complex macro i have XD rest are simple as above

[ruiizu]

Really desperately wanting baseline horse, and CD reduction with talent. Been doing some more PvE and it really is punishing that my only way out of mechanics is just press W (or usually Q/E) harder. I'm basically subsisting on Horse and Rocket Boots now.

[Project 501D13R]

Really desperately wanting baseline horse, and CD reduction with talent. Been doing some more PvE and it really is punishing that my only way out of mechanics is just press W (or usually Q/E) harder. I'm basically subsisting on Horse and Rocket Boots now.

yeah, aggramar's stride is going to be mandatory for us to be competitive in raids.

[Merrena]

yeah, aggramar's stride is going to be mandatory for us to be competitive in raids.

Where are you going to fit it with 3 legendaries that look really good for damage lol

[Deleted]

yeah, aggramar's stride is going to be mandatory for us to be competitive in raids.

Are bosses going to require more movement in Legion, or is that just a salty generalization?

[Zoopercat]

For those of you running sims for Retribution on the AMR simulator, I wanted to let you know we just updated the site with the latest beta patch. You can run updated sims on our beta site.

And remember, you can easily verify all of our implementations. For example, you can see Blade of Justice is updated to 400% weapon damage. In the "Effects" section, the damage formula starts with 4, which is the 400% damage multiplier.

Another quick example, Crusader Strike is updated to 210% weapon damage. Again, you'll find this in the damage formula, the first number, 2.1 is the damage multiplier.

The artifact trait, "Highlord's Judgement" is also updated to increase Judgement damage by 8% (and multiples of 8 for each rank). It's on the Judgement spell page, under the "Damage" section. In the damage formula, look for the pale peach colored trait name, HighlordsJudgement. Then just before it, you see 0.08, for the base 8% multiplier. And then it's being multiplied by the number of ranks in that artifact trait.

Browse the spells on the left menu if you want to check out other ones. The idea with this wiki style info is that it's easy(ish) to verify and you can have confidence that things are implemented correctly (or find bugs quickly).

Other updates:

• We have the client program available now (get it here), so you can target lower margins of error. You still use the website to setup sims and view reports, while the client operates in the background to use your own computer's cores.
• We also have all dps set bonuses implemented and about half of the legendaries (working on finishing those this week). Trinkets are still being worked on, so hang tight on those.
• We also moved the consumables out of the rotation and into the options when you setup a simulation.
• A few bug fixes.
• If you have questions, hit us up here, on Discord or our forums. And for help, this page has some resources.