[Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[Delimit]

Fracture has nothing to do with DS uptime. (you can't take it with FTD)

[Munkky]

I believe this nerf came due to tier. With pain gen from damage taken, IA, and fracture, you could get very high uptime on spikes. Combine with FtD I wouldn't have been suprised if some were getting near 100% uptime.

20 pain soul cleave was just too good with a 10 pain shear.

Designing the class around tier doesn't make sense. You design tier around the class.

[Cooper]

Designing the class around tier doesn't make sense. You design tier around the class.

So one would think.

[Deleted]

BEsides, that tier bonus makes frankly no sense since the latest change to soul cleave. Does it go from 30/60 to 20/40, or 20/50? If it's 20/40, well quite frankly it's overpowered as fuck (on top of being innacurate...), more likely it would become 20/50, but then about the scaling between 20 and 50 pain soulcleaves? 30->60 doubles it, most likely 20->50 would double it too, but that's not cool to "only" double the effect of the spell when the resource cost is more than doubled.. and if it does more than doubling the effect between 20 and 50 pain, then again it's inaccurate and overpowered.

Just a dumb tier bonus all around. Seems like a placeholder for pretty obvious reasons IMO.

[Deliverer]

I believe this nerf came due to tier. With pain gen from damage taken, IA, and fracture, you could get very high uptime on spikes. Combine with FtD I wouldn't have been suprised if some were getting near 100% uptime.

20 pain soul cleave was just too good with a 10 pain shear.

Tier has been the same since forever I highly dubt they made a pass on them because of all the testing/tuning.
20 pain soul cleave is a waste of GCD and you never soul cleave before 60 pain unless you are going to die if you don't.
We have roughly 50% uptime on DS and 100% is almost unbtainable I would say as fracture and FTD are on the same talent row.

[Munkky]

BEsides, that tier bonus makes frankly no sense since the latest change to soul cleave. Does it go from 30/60 to 20/40, or 20/50? If it's 20/40, well quite frankly it's overpowered as fuck (on top of being innacurate...), more likely it would become 20/50, but then about the scaling between 20 and 50 pain soulcleaves? 30->60 doubles it, most likely 20->50 would double it too, but that's not cool to "only" double the effect of the spell when the resource cost is more than doubled.. and if it does more than doubling the effect between 20 and 50 pain, then again it's inaccurate and overpowered.

Just a dumb tier bonus all around. Seems like a placeholder for pretty obvious reasons IMO.

Like deliverer said, the tier has been the same since alpha.

[Cooper]

Trying to choose between Feed the Demon and Fracture, I dunno.

Having more uptime on Demon Spikes seems really good, especially for the build I have in mind. On the other hand, Fracture a.) gives an option for spending Pain; b.) Is another button to push; c.) Is one of only two (as far as I'm aware) guaranteed Soul Fragment generators (the other being Soul Carver on the artifact with a one minute cooldown).

On the other other hand, with the increased cost of Soul Cleave and reduced Pain generation, I have no idea if using Fracture consistently is even a realistic possibility.

Of course, all this is on paper since I'm too much of a loser to be in the Beta. It looks like Fracture would be more fun... if it's actually usable. Is it? Or did the Pain and Soul Cleave changes kill it?

[Orloth]

As of now, Fracture isn't worth it. It does less damage than Soul Cleave (per pain and time) single target, and Souls only heal for 250% AP now, compared to the 850% Heal you would get from a Soul Cleave of the same price. Until they take another look at it to rebalance it, it's a dead talent.

I'd say Feed the Demon, as I've been getting good results with it, but Munkky has said previously that Soul Rending is the way to go.

[Leih]

Feed the Demon has been my choice lately too.

It's such a shame about Fracture, I liked how it fit in the rotation before but it's really dead in the water right now. Assuming everything else stays the same, it'll need reworking to make it useful in any way. I guess if it was much, much cheaper, that could be the simplest way to make it useful again.

A cheap more spammable version of Fracture might actually be nice as an extra button to press other than Shearing all day. If it was like 10 pain, generated one shard or something like that? Or free of Pain, but with a 3-5 second cooldown? Might give something to rotate against Shear while waiting for the chance to Soul Cleave. Not sure on the exact numbers, but right now it's just junk.

[Orloth]

I'd like to have it be our version of Shield Slam, personally. 6-9 second CD, generates some pain and a shard, chance to be reset by taking damage, possibly removes the shard generation from shear if needed for balance. It would change almost nothing mechanically, but give us more to do in our rotation, and could be easily tuned against Feed the Demon.

You'd have one talent focus your AM around DS, the other focusing it on Shard management and Soul Cleave, and the last being a passive Meta buff.

[Leih]

Would very much approve of something like that, even if it wasn't baseline would be nice to have it as an option.

[ShasVa]

Got some thoughts for Vengeance. It is likely that they'd never be implemented, but we can all dream.

- Soul Barrier does not cost Pain. It now reduces damage taken by 5%, up to a maximum 25%, based on the number of Soul Fragments that are up when it is used. Consuming a new Soul Fragment adds 5% absorption to the existing Soul Barrier. The duration and minimum absorption limit that already exist can remain as is.

- Shear once again generates 10 Pain.

- Swap the Soul Rending talent for both specs. Havoc now gets 50% Leech while Vengeance now gets 100% Leech.

[Crimbobbin]

So on the Class feedback forums now they are saying for survival the Secondary stats are Versa>haste(50%)>crit=mastery>haste(+50%). I hadn't seen any updated sims to reflect this change and also didn't se them give any in depth reasoning for that priority over the previous Haste>mastery for survival. Any one here have any input?

Edit: I see Munnky's priority changed, just wonder when that happened and how I missed it.

[daiceman]

Fracture has nothing to do with DS uptime. (you can't take it with FTD)

I meant felblade, I was naming pain generators.

[Munkky]

So on the Class feedback forums now they are saying for survival the Secondary stats are Versa>haste(50%)>crit=mastery>haste(+50%). I hadn't seen any updated sims to reflect this change and also didn't se them give any in depth reasoning for that priority over the previous Haste>mastery for survival. Any one here have any input?

Edit: I see Munnky's priority changed, just wonder when that happened and how I missed it.

That changed a few Weeks ago, it changed due to updated sims with harder hitting bosses.

[Tazgoth]

As of now, Fracture isn't worth it. It does less damage than Soul Cleave (per pain and time) single target, and Souls only heal for 250% AP now, compared to the 850% Heal you would get from a Soul Cleave of the same price. Until they take another look at it to rebalance it, it's a dead talent.

I'd say Feed the Demon, as I've been getting good results with it, but Munkky has said previously that Soul Rending is the way to go.

I have also found that Fracture does less damage than Soul Cleave even per pain, which seems wrong from my reading of the tooltips. Any idea why this is?

[Zabbs]

I'd like to have it be our version of Shield Slam, personally. 6-9 second CD, generates some pain and a shard, chance to be reset by taking damage, possibly removes the shard generation from shear if needed for balance. It would change almost nothing mechanically, but give us more to do in our rotation, and could be easily tuned against Feed the Demon.

You'd have one talent focus your AM around DS, the other focusing it on Shard management and Soul Cleave, and the last being a passive Meta buff.

I think Fracture was always meant to be our Heroic Strike actually. The added bonus of shards was just gravy in the devs eyes. You could burn pain off-tanking or for extra dps without totally losing your surviability. The community just found it could be used to pool resources and increase mitigation greatly. I think a lot of the changes and nerfs to shard heals + the former FTD & Fracture combo confirm this. Fracture needs a significant damage buff since each build has pushed DH away from the importance of shard generation. Like every other tank, I think they want our base resource generation to be slow and to have 5 shards be a very rare thing. I think this is done for the tank meta game to focus more on timing, positioning, and skill shots. If encounter design makes this an enjoyable change, I am all for it. It is just really hard to forget this great resource control and fast paced design we eventually grew into. I think all tanks are dealing with this in some form. Tuning and general inexperience with class changes on Beta make it very difficult to determine if the tank meta replacement is adequate.

[Orloth]

That changed a few Weeks ago, it changed due to updated sims with harder hitting bosses.

Do we have an ETA on stat weights?

[Deleted]

I have also found that Fracture does less damage than Soul Cleave even per pain, which seems wrong from my reading of the tooltips. Any idea why this is?

Artifact traits do not affect tooltips as far as I know, could be one of the reasons for this.

[Orloth]

It's at least partially because the higher pain cost means you are casting SC less often and therefore fitting in more of your other spells. And yeah, the 10% boost from your artifact helps as well.