[FROST] Legion Beta Megathread

[dark666105]

Hrm, just got chilled to the core. It is a 2nd buff that is seperate of Icy Veins, thus does not extend with Thermal Void, kinda lame.

[hasublade]

The amount of nerfs in every build is just bs. Frost is so below the bottom already but they go beyond. srsly.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

The amount of nerfs in every build is just bs. Frost is so below the bottom already but they go beyond. srsly.

Needed to happen.

[megadeth9001]

Needed to happen.

Why did it need to happen? I lurk over there at altered time and see you post quite a bit. I thought frost was already behind so why would it require anther nerf?

[Aceveda]

amusingly, the idiot friendly change to shatter makes it incredibly easy to shatter frostbolts in pvp

frostbolt > ice nova = shattered frostbolt

frostbolt > shimmer blink > frost nova = shattered frostbolt

frostbolt > shimmer blink > brainfreeze = shattered frostbolt

also icelance currently hits for pretty much nothing in pvp, so losing ice lance procs in exchange for buffing frostbolt damage from 60k to 800k is really a no brainer

the deep shatter talent is broken and needs to be either massively tuned down (but will then never be taken) or removed and replaced with something else

Deep Shatter is an excellent example of a cool PvP talent imo, but I'd like to propose another buff & trade-off for it.

Deep Shatter: Your Frostbolt deals 250% additional damage to nonfrozen targets, and 500% to Frozen targets.

Frostbolt, Frozen Orb, Blizzard, Freeze, and Water Jet can no longer generate Fingers of Frost. Replaces Icicles.

This way Frostbolt would always be strong like the old days, and superbuffed icicles/glacial spike wouldn't be a problem.

If anything should be toned down it's the dumb cooldowns, Ice Form, Icy Veins artifact trait and Runes of Power imo, cd stacking needs to stop.

[gallamann]

Needed to happen.

You further stated over on wow forums;

But no, the nerfs to Frostbolt were required, we were seeing it edge out Glacial Spike due to the mastery modifiers the spec has. This solidifies GS being usable for the foreseeable future.

To which I have the following question... how?

Our mastery creates Icicles and increases welly damage (welly damage has nothing to do with this)

Every GS we cast requires 5 frost bolts (sometimes less due to Artifact) to build the Icicles required to fire it. GS's variable damage is via those icicles, which themselves are created by frost bolt.

Nor does Mastery increase Frost Bolt damage, instead it dictates how much of the frost bolt damage is used to create the icicle.

Further GS base damage before icicles is 650%, almost 4 times that of Frostbolt.

It was also my understanding that because GS can crit, we are potentially double dipping on icicle crits.

So how would Frost Bolt ever edge out GS, meaning you would take Comet Storm or TV, neither of which benefit from icicles. Hell the whole point of GS is to cast as many Frostbolts as possible during an encounter to optimize your GS usage.

Edit - just remembered, mastery is a secondary stat and therefore it will be subject to new rules to throttle secondary stats

Also if mastery is truly causing this then why not change mastery itself, either the base down from 18% or the amount of mastery needed to add a %?

[Deleted]

The worst kind of people in this community are those that want their own spec to get nerfed.

[Wrathson]

Does anyone know if there are plans for replacing the Water Elemental model?
I really like the Water Elementals roaming around in the mage class hall. I think they would fit quite well.

[Deleted]

The worst kind of people in this community are those that want their own spec to get nerfed.

You are setting people with a levelled head, doing excellent theorycrafting, talking about nerfs that might happen eventually anyway because Blizzard aren't stupid, against people that think they are victims of a conspiracy or victims of devs that are against their spec.

[Champagne Supernova]

Does anyone know if there are plans for replacing the Water Elemental model?
I really like the Water Elementals roaming around in the mage class hall. I think they would fit quite well.

Might come with the spell visuals upgrade that is supposedly coming sometime in the future.

[Imnick]

Whenever they get around to updating mage spells they will presumably get around to updating the elemental.
I do not want them to simply replace it with a warlords of draenor model of a different creature when we could have an updated version of the existing one.

[Zoopercat]

The Ask Mr. Robot simulator is now updated with the latest patch for all DPS specs.

As I mentioned last week, you can verify all of the updates. For example, Frostbolt was reduced to 170% spell power. You can find that on the spell wiki: the first number in the damage formula is 1.7.

If you want to test out artifacts, you can easily edit them or add/remove relics in the simulator. Just click on any part of the artifact interface to change it - that easy. Here's a 1-minute video showing all of the character customizations in the simulator.

If you have questions, you can also hit us up in our discord chat channel.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

snip

So, Icicles are going to happen regardless. They're not part of GS's damage, they're part of Frostbolt. GS can crit them, sure, and THAT belongs to GS. Icy Caress, Black Ice, Ice Nine... The modifiers got out of hand. It's now safe through this tier, we'll see what has to happen for the second.

The worst kind of people in this community are those that want their own spec to get nerfed.

Yeah, I'm going to be the reason Frost is non-viable.

[gallamann]

So, Icicles are going to happen regardless. They're not part of GS's damage, they're part of Frostbolt. GS can crit them, sure, and THAT belongs to GS. Icy Caress, Black Ice, Ice Nine... The modifiers got out of hand. It's now safe through this tier, we'll see what has to happen for the second.

Ok, is what you are really trying to say is that because GS is two GCD's, due to all the icicle modifiers it would be more damage to cast two frost bolts and let icicles auto-fire in that window instead of GS?

Yeah, I'm going to be the reason Frost is non-viable.

Was going to comment on that however felt Tobindax did well in that regard. Please know the majority of us really appreciate all the time you dedicate to Frost mage spec.

Thank You

[Frost1129]

Ok, is what you are really trying to say is that because GS is two GCD's, due to all the icicle modifiers it would be more damage to cast two frost bolts and let icicles auto-fire in that window instead of GS?

The long-ish cast time certainly doesn't help it compete against Frostbolt+mastery modifiers. It's primary though that it has no real way to interact with those icicles beyond giving them a chance to crit. As Kuni said - GS or Frostbolt, the icicles are there. It's just a question of if the SP coeff of GS is enough to carry the slow cast+crit icicles through the all the mastery bonuses Frostbolt gets. IIRC this was the main concern with the spell in the first place - it has to hit really hard (Sp Coeff wise) to justify it's use, as the icicle component really is a minor thing.

[gallamann]

The long-ish cast time certainly doesn't help it compete against Frostbolt+mastery modifiers. It's primary though that it has no real way to interact with those icicles beyond giving them a chance to crit. As Kuni said - GS or Frostbolt, the icicles are there. It's just a question of if the SP coeff of GS is enough to carry the slow cast+crit icicles through the all the mastery bonuses Frostbolt gets. IIRC this was the main concern with the spell in the first place - it has to hit really hard (Sp Coeff wise) to justify it's use, as the icicle component really is a minor thing.

Yeah, that why I was asking how in first place, whether we use GS to deliver Icicle damage or auto-fire, is a wash unless GS crits. Mastery really isn't the issue because regardless we get same benefit from icicles created by it, nor are the modifiers to icicles because again we get the same benefit. Only edge GS offers on icicles is if it crits.

Could they have not instead raised GS's SP Coeff, or gave it a higher crit chance modifier, or let mastery apply to GS? Wouldn't any one of those have been a much better solution instead of kicking our sustain damage down two builds running, given the common complaint about frost is sustain and AoE?

[Frost1129]

Yeah, that why I was asking how in first place, whether we use GS to deliver Icicle damage or auto-fire, is a wash unless GS crits. Mastery really isn't the issue because regardless we get same benefit from icicles created by it, nor are the modifiers to icicles because again we get the same benefit. Only edge GS offers on icicles is if it crits.

So there are two things. The icicles *already generated* are basically equal for both, but Frostbolt has more mastery value still because with every cast you get Ice Nine (and I think another thing? I forget) that Glacial Spike doesn't. So while the icicles themselves deal the same damage if fired by GS/Frostbolt, Frostbolt has a higher average value from mastery.

[gallamann]

So there are two things. The icicles *already generated* are basically equal for both, but Frostbolt has more mastery value still because with every cast you get Ice Nine (and I think another thing? I forget) that Glacial Spike doesn't. So while the icicles themselves deal the same damage if fired by GS/Frostbolt, Frostbolt has a higher average value from mastery.

Our sustained damage comes from Frost Bolt, Ice Lance and Icicles, aka what you can do while waiting on cooldowns. When I see someone like Kuni state our sustain needs help prior to these last two builds, it is treated as a solid piece of information.

What is the truth here, because if our sustain needed help prior to last two builds, it needs even more help now.

Phrased differently, the argument for nerfing sustain is;

"We reduced the bulk of your damage to ensure Glacial Spike remains a viable talent"

At the end of the day we need to be able to step in a raid and use Frost competitively against Arcane or Fire because that Artifact is going to pigeon-hole you to that spec for 6+ months (time to fill out two artifacts), if you actually care about the damage you are doing in a raid.

[Frost1129]

I haven't said anything about your sustain. I'd imagine they found after returning Shatter to Ice Lances that Frost was a reasonably strong spec, and didn't need the buffs.

[heinz0r]

Wow, massive nerf in this new build to frost pvp. Deep Shatter from 300% to 200% and iceform from 50% to 30%. Guess only melee classes allowed in legion pvp...