Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Phurox]

I'm between playing outlaw rogue (pvp) or demon hunter. Would I be better if with a DH in the beginning of legion because of the Rogues weak outlaw spec or isn't it that bad?


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[Symphonic]

We have 3 specs too chose from depending on what you need, we will probably end up with one above on St and one on AOE /Cleave. all 3 spec will probably shine somwhere, that's were playing a pure shine, having option...

But is it worth shining only in the final patch? Because there is not enough time to level all the artifacts during progression. They need to let people choose their favorite spec, and be good in all instances (like feral druid is fine at AoE and Single Target, and balance is as well) As such, an outlaw rogue should still be able to do good single target damage, and AoE, just in a different style compared to sub or assassination. Sub could have shadow explosions, assassination has poison vials. They should be equal in terms of damage output possibility, so changing specs is truly a choice, not a requirement.

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I'm between playing outlaw rogue (pvp) or demon hunter. Would I be better if with a DH in the beginning of legion because of the Rogues weak outlaw spec or isn't it that bad?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But, be sure to still play the spec you want so you don't miss out on artifact power progression.

[Kalador]

But is it worth shining only in the final patch? Because there is not enough time to level all the artifacts during progression. They need to let people choose their favorite spec, and be good in all instances (like feral druid is fine at AoE and Single Target, and balance is as well) As such, an outlaw rogue should still be able to do good single target damage, and AoE, just in a different style compared to sub or assassination. Sub could have shadow explosions, assassination has poison vials. They should be equal in terms of damage output possibility, so changing specs is truly a choice, not a requirement.

It's almost impossible to balance spec so they are on equal ground in every situation, if you want all spec to be equal you would have to copy past them. I agree with you that they could be closer tho but that should not be at the cost of uniqueness.

Here is my opinion, and I totaly get why some people don't agree but I will explaine how I view things...

Personally I don't play a sub rogue or outlaw rogue, when I choose to play rogue I choose it cause I know I have 3 different spec that will allow me to be highly flexible, that comes at a price, the price is that I will have to spend the time to gear those 3 specs, level at least 2 artefact to a good point and a 3rd to a decent point. This invesment is rewarded cause I now have 3 specs that all have different niche giving me a tone of option on every fight and a chance to shine in almost every situation. That's why I play pure dps, I love the niche design, when I play a spec I love for it to excel on something and because I like giving 100% on every fight I'm ready to switch, I want to switch, I'm open to play all 3 specs and learn them, I enjoy the facts that they have different playstyle, it's refreshing and also good cause they have different niche making my kit even stronger.

For me hybrid like feral or bommies have other advantage, they also have niche and most of the time are no so bad outside of those, they don't ask for as much invesment as they only have 1 spec to really ''gear'' but this comme at the price of less flexiblility in the dps category, they have less option to adapt to every fight style, tho they have the option of filling other role, witch is somthing that can be really good.

As I said I understand people who love 1 spec and want to be sub rogue or outlaw rogue and feel for them when their spec is crap on most fight... but on a personal level idc as long as my full rogue kit is strong.

[Lesane]

But, be sure to still play the spec you want so you don't miss out on artifact power progression.

Weren't they going to have a catch up mechanic for artifact power?

[Deleted]

Honestly this whole conversation seems like half empty/half full issue. So to make things clear to everyone without using such subjective words like "utter crap" or "not by much" lets just put the numbers out there.

Firstly you agree that Outlaw is behind. Roughly what percentage do you feel they are behind both subtlety and assassination respectively? Do you feel currently that Assassination and Sub do acceptable DPS in the large scheme of things, are they on the high end, low end of the spectrum? Also do how much do you thing last nights changes helped things percentage wise? If anything I asked you haven't had a chance to thoroughly test or run numbers on since the changes would you be will too at some point for those of us saps with no real beta access?

I would say around 20% behind on single target, and a ahead (by a good margin now, was doing 850k on some trash packs earlier) on aoe (not cleave). Sub and assassination are in a really good spot now imo, from mythic testing where everyone has same ilvl and full artifacts.

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I have 18 points in it. No Greed. It's still 25% behind other specs after this last round of changes. That's worthless, and quite in line with what I said previously.

Edit: I have two Relics buffing the Main Gauche Node, and I forget what the third is in.

First off well lets just say we have quite different definitions of "worthless", since about 20% in single target is around what I have been saying all along(never half of other specs like that "simulator" pic was saying), being called a troll left and right because of that (quite funny actually), and it can never be better than that because of blade flurry, its just a fact of life. With new jolly roger and some other buff (or more) outlaw aoe is now quite strong, especially if you get the improved blade flurry energy regen traits.

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http://imgur.com/Amf0sUy

That burst aoe.

[Wow]

Weren't they going to have a catch up mechanic for artifact power?

Not really the artifact research is all you get and you can use that for whatever spec you want but that doesn't really catch up anything. As that will be used on your main artifact for a long time even with it month months and months later you can then use your ap on another. And with how they set it up getting artifact research high will take a really long time too.


The only catch up they say they are doing is if you aren't playing the exp and come in months and months late your artifact research will finish quicker but for people actually playing there is nothing.

[Angrie]

There's two things i want to touch on since people feel outlaw is "worthless".

#1. Play the spec you like to play and enjoy. If you're a really good outlaw rogue and you play it perfectly, you will do more dps as outlaw than as assassination/sub that you play sub-optimally. This has always been the case in WoW - or pretty much everything in existence. Case: I play guitar. Bass guitar is very similar to guitar. I do not practice bass, therefore I am "perfect" guitar player and a "sub-optimal" bass player. Given their similarities, and the sake of this thread, I enjoy guitar, will play guitar, and be good at guitar - not bass despite their similarities.

#2. There's critical points in how assassination is played in order for it to maximize dps. A modeling tool, such as a sim, sees a dot (rupture) as a static variable. It's always there ticking doing variable things like critting. That same variable does not see Roll the Bones the same way. It's literally impossible for the sims to account for the type of buffs you could have in an encounter. The sims will see you getting each buff once, when in reality you could get the same buff (Jolly Roger for example) all fight long. This variable, RNG, defines the spec. Coming from a Fire Mage main, i enjoy this variable. It's what makes the game exciting and fun. My guild has asked me to respec to arcane numerous times since Firelands, to which i ALWAYS responded with "no". When arcane/frost was doing well in MOP, i was topping meters as fire.

Play what you want to play. If people are forcing you to play something different, change those people - not what you enjoy spending your time doing.



On the PTR outlaw is incredibly fun. I played every spec the game has to offer on the 7.0 patch and decided to main an Outlaw rogue. I would love to know how people are gearing on the beta as outlaw. Haste > Mastery > Crit? If that's the case i would suggest a Crit > Mastery = Haste build as Saber slash is your #1 damage dealer (even with the artifact changes this will hold true) and the best way to increase it's damage is with more agility or crit.

Imagine having 40% crit, with shark infested waters, with blood lust. 40 seconds of brutal blows. "But RNG!" Imagine 40% crit, Jolly Roger, and blood lust. Seriously, re-evaluate gearing before making accusations at blizzard.

[PessimiStick]

#2. There's critical points in how assassination is played in order for it to maximize dps. A modeling tool, such as a sim, sees a dot (rupture) as a static variable. It's always there ticking doing variable things like critting. That same variable does not see Roll the Bones the same way. It's literally impossible for the sims to account for the type of buffs you could have in an encounter. The sims will see you getting each buff once, when in reality you could get the same buff (Jolly Roger for example) all fight long. This variable, RNG, defines the spec. Coming from a Fire Mage main, i enjoy this variable. It's what makes the game exciting and fun. My guild has asked me to respec to arcane numerous times since Firelands, to which i ALWAYS responded with "no". When arcane/frost was doing well in MOP, i was topping meters as fire.

This is just complete, utter tripe. It shows willful ignorance, or a complete misunderstanding of simulation, maybe both. As for "play the spec you like", that works great when you're in a casual guild who just does Heroic and plods through content. When you're in a serious guild that's progressing on Mythic, you're just hurting the other 19+ people you raid with. The most likely outcome is that you change those people, but more likely because they remove you than because you chose to leave.

[Deleted]

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Playing what you like and what you find fun is fine and all as long as your guild doesn't mind it. I too knew a mage in my previous guild that only played frost and was constantly parsing at 99% with a rank 2-3 literally on every fight. And most of the times the arcane mages in the raid did more damage than him with their 70% parses.

If you play in a casual guild that doesn't care about ranks, wowprogress and min-maxing, sure, play what you like. But if you're in a more competitive guild, you're expected to adapt and play what is optimal and what is more helpful to the raid. You might not be playing Arcane optimally now, but if you're asked, you should work and learn to play the spec optimally. Otherwise another mage that can play arcane better than you will replace you.

Let's put it this way, no serious guild will take a top 1% outlaw rogue over a top 1% assa or sub rogue with the current tuning.

[Deleted]

Ye ofc play whatever you like. But i think this discussion is more about raid progress and pvp. And in current state outlaw is just bad, I can't say anything about recent buffs cause I didn't put any points in this artifact on beta but i doubt it's "game breaking".
From my experience playing outlaw in current iteration during progress would be unfair towards rest of the guild. And it is blizzard fault cause they announced this huge spec remake on a foundation that all specs will be similar in power in regards to single or AoE damage.

[Deleted]

http://imgur.com/Amf0sUy

That burst aoe.

http://imgur.com/6i2TjQp

That burst aoe.

[Angrie]

Ye ofc play whatever you like. But i think this discussion is more about raid progress and pvp. And in current state outlaw is just bad, I can't say anything about recent buffs cause I didn't put any points in this artifact on beta but i doubt it's "game breaking".
From my experience playing outlaw in current iteration during progress would be unfair towards rest of the guild. And it is blizzard fault cause they announced this huge spec remake on a foundation that all specs will be similar in power in regards to single or AoE damage.

I'll respond to you since you're the one with the level head.

I will agree with you that currently for _most_ this will not be a spec to use to progress. Saying that it will never be used because it's the "lowest" dps is outlandish. If the argument is to bring the best possible dps always, then the question is: Why bring "Class A" when you can bring "X Y or Z"?

Blizzard has made changes to outlaws artifact weapon, which will help the spec overall. The benefit of everyone having an artifact is it gives Blizzard levers to pull when a spell is performing well or poorly.

[PessimiStick]

If the argument is to bring the best possible dps always, then the question is: Why bring "Class A" when you can bring "X Y or Z"?

Because rerolling a character is an order of magnitude more work than switching specs. That said, we have had many players reroll classes for precisely that reason.

[Angrie]

Because rerolling a character is an order of magnitude more work than switching specs. That said, we have had many players reroll classes for precisely that reason.

And who are you and why should i care about your opinion? O wait you're that 1 in 7,000,000,000 person that matters... pff go away gnat.

Infracted.

[ymirsson]

Blizzard has made changes to outlaws artifact weapon, which will help the spec overall. The benefit of everyone having an artifact is it gives Blizzard levers to pull when a spell is performing well or poorly.

It's not like the could pull alot of different levers already?

[Symphonic]

And who are you and why should i care about your opinion? O wait you're that 1 in 7,000,000,000 person that matters... pff go away gnat.

Sounds like he was agreeing with you that sometimes it just is better to change class than have someone change a spec... and you responded quite rudely. I don't get why you're upset at reasonable comments.

[Angrie]

Sounds like he was agreeing with you that sometimes it just is better to change class than have someone change a spec... and you responded quite rudely. I don't get why you're upset at reasonable comments.

Probably because he tried to pull 'rank' on me without any information at all.

As with most high ranking guilds, their member just show up. He doesn't have more facts on the subject matter just because his guild is rank 52 in the US.

Yet, he RUDELY stated 'misunderstanding simulations'. Might I add a PERSONAL note... My CAREER is in PREDICTIVE MODELING. That's what simulations are. You put variables in a model, what you end up with is predictive results. Those results while predictive, are an average. This data translates into behaviors of products (specs) in environments (raids).

I'd loveeeeeeee to hear this trashcan tell me what I don't understand so i can throw my lucrative salary at him. Maybe get him a real job instead of raiding 20 hours a day for 2-3 weeks twice a year.

Sorry if i offended you, however, this 'utterly ignorant' person is nothing to me.


[Infracted]

[Deleted]

Probably because he tried to pull 'rank' on me without any information at all.

As with most high ranking guilds, their member just show up. He doesn't have more facts on the subject matter just because his guild is rank 52 in the US.

Yet, he RUDELY stated 'misunderstanding simulations'. Might I add a PERSONAL note... My CAREER is in PREDICTIVE MODELING. That's what simulations are. You put variables in a model, what you end up with is predictive results. Those results while predictive, are an average. This data translates into behaviors of products (specs) in environments (raids).

I'd loveeeeeeee to hear this trashcan tell me what I don't understand so i can throw my lucrative salary at him. Maybe get him a real job instead of raiding 20 hours a day for 2-3 weeks twice a year.

Sorry if i offended you, however, this 'utterly ignorant' person is nothing to me.

well that escalated quickly

you are completely right, those results by the sims ARE average. that's the point. Of course you can have a pull where you will get back-to-back 6-buff RtB and you will jizz in your pants while being top on skada, but that doesn't mean anything. It definitely doesn't mean that outlaw is viable and a competitive option, because in the other 99.99% of the pulls, you won't get those buffs. If I win the lottery once that doesn't mean that playing the lottery is an equally good method of getting money as having a job. Or that I'm "super good" at playing the lottery, like you might think you will be at playing outlaw.

[Deleted]

Simulation is as good as model. So if model contains all "actions" - spell priority depending on your current buff then your results will be good. Making 100,000 iterations takes few minutes max depending on your PC, and in simulationcraft you get not only avarage but min, max and other statistics so you can estimate your 'power'.
Top raiding guilds dislike rng, bacause they want to get kills with least amount of gear, and they really can't depend on this much rng. That outlaw currently have.

[PessimiStick]

Yet, he RUDELY stated 'misunderstanding simulations'. Might I add a PERSONAL note... My CAREER is in PREDICTIVE MODELING. That's what simulations are. You put variables in a model, what you end up with is predictive results. Those results while predictive, are an average. This data translates into behaviors of products (specs) in environments (raids).

I stand by my post. What you said is absolutely untrue when it comes to monte carlo simulations. As an aside, the average is what you want. Relying on getting results several standard deviations outside the norm is a great way to wipe forever. Not that I believe you for one second about your RL claims, of course.