[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[Deleted]

very interesting, but the fact that we probably wont use RJW everytime it comes off cooldown (especially if we are specced into chi burst/chi wave) should value special delivery a little bit more. RJW is probably pretty low in our priority list (probably only above tiger palm)

i will definitely play around with it a little bit

[skeptyc]

very interesting, but the fact that we probably wont use RJW everytime it comes off cooldown (especially if we are specced into chi burst/chi wave) should value special delivery a little bit more. RJW is probably pretty low in our priority list (probably only above tiger palm)

i will definitely play around with it a little bit

RJW has more uses than just damage, though. Grabbing aggro. We don't really have any other snap aggro grab if the Exploding Keg is on CD. RJW is more utility than damage, imo.

[fringemoo]

An addition and a correction:

I didn't take into account that RJW scales with haste, meaning it's damage would be higher than in my initial post. (but it also means you lose more GCDs)

As to it being more utility than damage I'm not sure I agree, that is to say it looks like it's probably superior dps wise as well. (Apart from burst, you could potentially dump all your brews as fast as you can and net a considerable amount of damage from SD)

I did a few checks with Niuzao, with my level 100 character it does around 275k per activation, of which only 101k is aoe damage, but for brevity sake lets assume all of it as aoe, with 3m cd it comes down to 1527 damage per second, the same character does 5135 damage per second with RJW at the cost of a GCD every (5.1s in my case), for my character the average damage of TP is 8859 long story short RJW does 3516 dps (with the lost gcd accounted for).

TLDR: Niuzao will need to be buffed at least 100% to be on par with RJW on single target and at least 200% on aoe.

PS. With all of the above the new over the top graphics for RJW are really really anoying especially when there is a lot going under your feet, so it's a definite drawback at least for me.

[Ray3andrei]

So, while I don't have the beta, I've been playing around on the PTR a bit and everytime i hear someone say that the mastery is reliable I just can't wrap my head around it. Yes it is reliable to dodge EVENTUALLY, but this isn't the "good" kind of reliable.

On the PTR I have 15% base dodge chance, and about 36% mastery. I dodge around 35%ish of the attacks. With 23% mastery i dodge almost as much, this is just poor design.

On Live I have 25% dodge chance. On my last kill on mythic archimonde I dodged 61% of the attacks (while this might have been really lucky i usualy dodge around 50% to 65% of all attacks) with the help of elusive brew ofc, not only did i dodge almost twice as much I can also choose when I have 70% dodge chance, that's more reliable to me than a stacking dodge chance that I can't control.

What also bothers me is the base 15% dodge, I think this should be replaced with the dodge chance of your current mastery level, that would make more sense, so if you have 40% mastery, you start with 40% dodge chance (this needs numbers tuning obvs). But this will kind of break the 33% barrier which seems to be hard to break even with high mastery.
I haven't played the beta, but i know brew-stache adds 10% dodge chance for 1.5sec but some bosses will get only like 1 hit off in that period, there is also the lvl 100 talent, but the dodge chance still seems low to me.

This is one of the problems i have with the spec, I don't even wanna touch the really boring artifact abilities, two of which tie to a cooldown that makes us immortal to make us even more immortal? Not to mention that cooldown will see 2 uses at best during a fight, dragon fire brew is the most boring talent ever and it should seriously be changed.

What I do like however is Blackout combo, this is marvelous and imo it should be part of the spec itself and not a talent.

Things might me different on tbe beta, but how they are ptr, brewmaster looks very unappealing from a progression perspective and even on farm, because the damage is very, very low

[stross01]

So, while I don't have the beta, I've been playing around on the PTR a bit and everytime i hear someone say that the mastery is reliable I just can't wrap my head around it. Yes it is reliable to dodge EVENTUALLY, but this isn't the "good" kind of reliable.

On the PTR I have 15% base dodge chance, and about 36% mastery. I dodge around 35%ish of the attacks. With 23% mastery i dodge almost as much, this is just poor design.

On Live I have 25% dodge chance. On my last kill on mythic archimonde I dodged 61% of the attacks (while this might have been really lucky i usualy dodge around 50% to 65% of all attacks) with the help of elusive brew ofc, not only did i dodge almost twice as much I can also choose when I have 70% dodge chance, that's more reliable to me than a stacking dodge chance that I can't control.

What also bothers me is the base 15% dodge, I think this should be replaced with the dodge chance of your current mastery level, that would make more sense, so if you have 40% mastery, you start with 40% dodge chance (this needs numbers tuning obvs). But this will kind of break the 33% barrier which seems to be hard to break even with high mastery.
I haven't played the beta, but i know brew-stache adds 10% dodge chance for 1.5sec but some bosses will get only like 1 hit off in that period, there is also the lvl 100 talent, but the dodge chance still seems low to me.

This is one of the problems i have with the spec, I don't even wanna touch the really boring artifact abilities, two of which tie to a cooldown that makes us immortal to make us even more immortal? Not to mention that cooldown will see 2 uses at best during a fight, dragon fire brew is the most boring talent ever and it should seriously be changed.

What I do like however is Blackout combo, this is marvelous and imo it should be part of the spec itself and not a talent.

Things might me different on tbe beta, but how they are ptr, brewmaster looks very unappealing from a progression perspective and even on farm, because the damage is very, very low

On the beta, the base dodge is 10.50%. If you have 20% mastery, you start out with 10.50% dodge. You gain 20% when you get hit. If you get hit again, you gain 20% more every time you're hit until you finally dodge.

Being able to dodge every other or every third attack is huge. Being able to mitigate every hit that goes through is huge.

As for the artifact traits, no artifact traits, beyond the artifact's signature ability, they're all pretty boring. None of them are game-changers.

[keqe]

So, while I don't have the beta, I've been playing around on the PTR a bit and everytime i hear someone say that the mastery is reliable I just can't wrap my head around it. Yes it is reliable to dodge EVENTUALLY, but this isn't the "good" kind of reliable.

On the PTR I have 15% base dodge chance, and about 36% mastery. I dodge around 35%ish of the attacks. With 23% mastery i dodge almost as much, this is just poor design.

On Live I have 25% dodge chance. On my last kill on mythic archimonde I dodged 61% of the attacks (while this might have been really lucky i usualy dodge around 50% to 65% of all attacks) with the help of elusive brew ofc, not only did i dodge almost twice as much I can also choose when I have 70% dodge chance, that's more reliable to me than a stacking dodge chance that I can't control.

What also bothers me is the base 15% dodge, I think this should be replaced with the dodge chance of your current mastery level, that would make more sense, so if you have 40% mastery, you start with 40% dodge chance (this needs numbers tuning obvs). But this will kind of break the 33% barrier which seems to be hard to break even with high mastery.

Sure 70% dodge with Elusive Brew seems nice and you have "control" over it. Until you get smacked 4 times a row in Tyrant and die. Which is why you pretty much play the encounter as if the ability never existed. Because you can't rely on it. A stacking dodge like mastery is "weak" in comparison, but it is reliable and it won't ever bite your ass as it guarantees the dodges after certain amount.

[Ray3andrei]

On the beta, the base dodge is 10.50%. If you have 20% mastery, you start out with 10.50% dodge. You gain 20% when you get hit. If you get hit again, you gain 20% more every time you're hit until you finally dodge.

Being able to dodge every other or every third attack is huge. Being able to mitigate every hit that goes through is huge.

As for the artifact traits, no artifact traits, beyond the artifact's signature ability, they're all pretty boring. None of them are game-changers.

I know how it works, but what i'm trying to say is that if you have 0% mastery you should have 0% base dodge, if you have 30% mastery, you should have 30% dodge, and you still get the stacking dodge

[keqe]

I know how it works, but what i'm trying to say is that if you have 0% mastery you should have 0% base dodge, if you have 30% mastery, you should have 30% dodge, and you still get the stacking dodge

If the mastery gave it's first bonus 100% of the time, it would have to be tuned to be very low and it would lose its purpose of preventing long series of non-dodges because the % would be much lower.

[Ray3andrei]

Sure 70% dodge with Elusive Brew seems nice and you have "control" over it. Until you get smacked 4 times a row in Tyrant and die. Which is why you pretty much play the encounter as if the ability never existed. Because you can't rely on it. A stacking dodge like mastery is "weak" in comparison, but it is reliable and it won't ever bite your ass as it guarantees the dodges after certain amount.

In phase 3 tyrant, Elusive brew is a great answer, sure you might get screwed over and the results might be differ from fight to fight, but your damage intake will be lower on average than with the stacking dodge.

[keqe]

In phase 3 tyrant, Elusive brew is a great answer, sure you might get screwed over and the results might be differ from fight to fight, but your damage intake will be lower on average than with the stacking dodge.

Who cares about average damage taken when the boss 2 hits you or 1 hits you during progression? Elusive brew is completely unreliable and thus wouldn't matter if it didn't even exist there because if you relied on it you'd die every second pull to being unlucky.

Sure it is much stronger for reducing overall damage taken, but history has proven it usually isn't a problem. Maybe in Legion Elusive Brew would be very strong because overall damage taken is our weak point if it ends up mattering longer than half a tier. But if history repeats itself the mastery is a "better" version as it can be relied on.

[Ray3andrei]

Who cares about average damage taken when the boss 2 hits you or 1 hits you during progression? Elusive brew is completely unreliable and thus wouldn't matter if it didn't even exist there because if you relied on it you'd die every second pull to being unlucky.

And this would improve with a stacking dodge that requires you to get hit twice to get to the same amount of dodge?

I guess we'll have to wait and see how it turns out in legion.

[arcuro]

And this would improve with a stacking dodge that requires you to get hit twice to get to the same amount of dodge?

I guess we'll have to wait and see how it turns out in legion.

the plus of the mastery is that you know you WILL dodge no matter what after an amount of non dodges
with EB you can dodge with 70% but you also cannot dodge with 70%

even with base 30% mastery you can dodge twice in a row, or more if stars aligne for you. but you know that you WILL 100% sure dodge after so and so non dodges. it looses its RNG at some point so knowing that you will dodge every 3 hit is hudge compare to hope that your EB will let you dodge

[stross01]

In phase 3 tyrant, Elusive brew is a great answer, sure you might get screwed over and the results might be differ from fight to fight, but your damage intake will be lower on average than with the stacking dodge.

Elusive Brew isn't Elusive Brawler nor is it intended to be. Damage intake is a completely different design now.

[Deleted]

If I'm tanking a boss that hits like a train, and a mob that hits like a wet noodle simultaneously,

does dodging the wet noodle take away the guarantee to dodge the train?

[Xequecal]

If I'm tanking a boss that hits like a train, and a mob that hits like a wet noodle simultaneously,

does dodging the wet noodle take away the guarantee to dodge the train?

Yes, but it can work the other way around too, where the little mob gives you the stack you need to get the guaranteed dodge on the big one.

[Tech614]

In phase 3 tyrant, Elusive brew is a great answer, sure you might get screwed over and the results might be differ from fight to fight, but your damage intake will be lower on average than with the stacking dodge.

lol, you NEVER want to rely on RNG to survive a fight, and relying on EB was just that. You where doing it wrong.

The mastery is guaranteed mitigation, it still has an RNG element to it, but it virtually guarantees you won't take 4-5 melee swings in a row. Meaning you can always rely on at least dodging every 4th swing, where as with EB you could never rely on it for jack shit and any competent raid leader would tell you so. You don't just tell your raid not to put that external on you because you just popped a 13 stack EB. Where as you might very well be able to get around needing some healing and an external when you know you're going to dodge before you die.

[Ray3andrei]

lol, you NEVER want to rely on RNG to survive a fight, and relying on EB was just that. You where doing it wrong.

The mastery is guaranteed mitigation, it still has an RNG element to it, but it virtually guarantees you won't take 4-5 melee swings in a row. Meaning you can always rely on at least dodging every 4th swing, where as with EB you could never rely on it for jack shit and any competent raid leader would tell you so. You don't just tell your raid not to put that external on you because you just popped a 13 stack EB. Where as you might very well be able to get around needing some healing and an external when you know you're going to dodge before you die.

I never said i relied ONLY on elusive brew?, i just meant it really isn't as bad as people make it be and i just prefer it to the stacking dodge, I get that its more "reliable". but getting hit 4 times in a row with 70% chance rarely happend to me.

Imagine this, you have no guard, no expel harm, no dampen harm, basicaly no cds, on a p3 tyrant, would you rather have a 70% dodge chance? Or a stacking dodge starting from 10% and everytime you get hit you add 40%? While elusive brawler does guarantee you a dodge it also almost guarantees you will get hit.

There's really no more point in comparing them since the respective kits sre completely different, I just think that our mastery is by far the worst (i guess prot warriors come close-ish) out of all tanks

[Tech614]

I never said i relied ONLY on elusive brew?, i just meant it really isn't as bad as people make it be and i just prefer it to the stacking dodge, I get that its more "reliable". but getting hit 4 times in a row with 70% chance rarely happend to me.

It's not good, when you can't rely on it and have to prepare as if doesn't exist it's a literally worthless ability.

Imagine this, you have no guard, no expel harm, no dampen harm, basicaly no cds, on a p3 tyrant, would you rather have a 70% dodge chance? Or a stacking dodge starting from 10% and everytime you get hit you add 40%? While elusive brawler does guarantee you a dodge it also almost guarantees you will get hit.

If you're tanking Tyrant in p3 without a cd up, you and your raid are doing it wrong. Citing a hypothetical situation that wouldn't happen if playing properly to try and prove an ability was good. Ooooookay bro. Did you literally wipe your raid on purpose on tyrant for the sake of making an rng ability seem not worthless? Or did you just do tyrant mythic long after real progression was over and simply over gear it with fully mythic gear and valor buffs? You know what happened when I progressed on Tyrant if I didn't have a cd up in p3 Tyrant mythic? I ate dirt, wouldn't matter if EB helped dodge 3 hits in a row the one that landed was going to kill me instantly. If I tried to rely on it as a CD supplement it would have literally screwed my guild over for weeks unless one attempt I got the God of all God Tier RNGS.

There's really no more point in comparing them since the respective kits sre completely different, I just think that our mastery is by far the worst (i guess prot warriors come close-ish) out of all tanks

EB was worthless, our mastery is not the best thing ever but far from worthless. You're right there is no comparison.

[v1perz53]

I never said i relied ONLY on elusive brew?, i just meant it really isn't as bad as people make it be and i just prefer it to the stacking dodge, I get that its more "reliable". but getting hit 4 times in a row with 70% chance rarely happend to me.

Imagine this, you have no guard, no expel harm, no dampen harm, basicaly no cds, on a p3 tyrant, would you rather have a 70% dodge chance? Or a stacking dodge starting from 10% and everytime you get hit you add 40%? While elusive brawler does guarantee you a dodge it also almost guarantees you will get hit.

There's really no more point in comparing them since the respective kits sre completely different, I just think that our mastery is by far the worst (i guess prot warriors come close-ish) out of all tanks

Honestly, the stacking dodge. The problem with something like 70% dodge, as everyone has said already, is that there exists the possibility to get hit 5 times in a row. Which becomes even more dangerous if you dodged the 5 previous hits and healers haven't had to watch you for a while now. 40% stacking guarantees you will dodge at least every 4th hit, and the low base chance to dodge ensures that you will typically take the next hit, meaning healers will be used to keeping a base level of healing going on you. Plus, they will ALWAYS have breathing room to heal you up at the very minimum every 6 seconds because of this. With this model, your damage becomes very steady, which is fantastic for a tank and the reason we were having the ISB discussion before. As has been said many times, overall damage taken per second should never kill a tank, reducing that will just save some healer mana. But damage spikes, especially when unexpected, WILL kill tanks and are the most dangerous. So smoothing your damage intake becomes very useful.

[Samvex]

Well I don't want to interrupt you guys in your hot disscusion but is there a solid stat priority for bm so far?