[SURVIVAL]Legion Alpha Discussion

[LGND]

I am truly mind blown by the fact that there are several classes with increased melee range in legion but the spear wielder isn't part of this. We should be having the longest melee range. Especially with our ranged history.

[oqtopus]

i was wondering since we only have 28 pages for a completely new spec

how comes?

the dmg isnt that bad is it ? how come people dont discuss stuff ? or is it mostly because its a new spec and most people dont have beta so they prefer to watch how it plays out before reading/discussing about it?

[Deleted]

i was wondering since we only have 28 pages for a completely new spec

how comes?

the dmg isnt that bad is it ? how come people dont discuss stuff ? or is it mostly because its a new spec and most people dont have beta so they prefer to watch how it plays out before reading/discussing about it?

A normal competative raid will N E V E R have a melee spot for a SV hunter. Period.

[oqtopus]

A normal competative raid will N E V E R have a melee spot for a SV hunter. Period.

why is that?

[Rehija]

why is that?

bcs. there are way more melee than ranged classes / speccs. Then add the melee clusterfuck wich almost every Raidgrp. already has and you get the reason

[Nakauri]

https://trueshotlodge.ca/curated/specs/survival/

Go down to the artifact section, has a more detailed explanation about artifact power spending.

These pages will be getting a big revamp soon, along with the addition of the beast mastery page and links to azor's prepatch information when it's on icy-veins (and anything else that crops up between now and then). For now keep in mind the majority of the information is from June 14th, which was a month ago, and to take the data with a grain of salt because the numbers are definitely outdated. The main principle and bulk of the information should be ok, and I doubt the artifact will change much, so there is that.

[pixelated senpai]

why is that?

Plus other melees bring something a bit more useful to a comp. war=rallying, rogue=cloak/soaking, DH=half ass smokebomb, Shaman=wind rush totem, etc
The only thing i see survival bring are traps?

[Typhod]

bcs. there are way more melee than ranged classes / speccs. Then add the melee clusterfuck wich almost every Raidgrp. already has and you get the reason

Why do people keep saying that there are way more melee specs than ranged? Sure Legion added 2 new melee specs in survival and Havoc, but that brings up the amount of melee dps specs to 12, with the ranged specs are now at 11. Its more balanced than ever now because in Wod we had 12 ranged specs and 10 melee specs. I do not find this a valid argument for why a survival hunter cant be in a raid.

Plus other melees bring something a bit more useful to a comp. war=rallying, rogue=cloak/soaking, DH=half ass smokebomb, Shaman=wind rush totem, etc
The only thing i see survival bring are traps?

I do think the traps are very valid to why you should bring a survival hunter. They are somewhat niche in comparision to those you mentioned but when they are getting used then they will shine for sure.

Freezing Trap is a nice CC, nothing special, but the Steel Trap talent is huge in the right scenarios. Allowing a long root with a nice DoT, to damage adds before they can reach the tank.

Tar Trap is just like we know Ice Trap today, its niche but are very useful if you use it right. But the real deal here is the Caltrops talent, this is the first AoE 70% slow as far as i know which can be extremely useful for specific encounters (im thinking Kilrogg adds as an example to get an even greater snare than the mostly used Concussive shot todays hunters use).

These are unfortunately talents but Steel Trap is simming high dps as of now iirc and Caltrops are a little bit worse but shines in AoE encounters.

With that said,I think there are reasons to bring a survival hunter, but they will fill a niche role. Then again, there arent always things to spak for a rogue with Cloak and so on.

[Deleted]

Why do people keep saying that there are way more melee specs than ranged?


I do think the traps are very valid to why you should bring a survival hunter.

Sure the number of spec are equal, but we are talking for a actual working raidcomposition. The reason you bring melee if for specific spells/abilitys and in some cases for extremly hight dps if blizzard fucks something up (Like they always do). SV bring NOTHING, while having the worst survivability of any class in the game. Looking back at 11 years of raiding, cant really think of any encounter where you wanted melee over ranged. Ranged usualy always have some kind of mechanic that you can ignore or make less annoying.

What exacly do you think traps does ? Have there been a single boss in the WOD where you used a trap ? Yes i know there a very minor encounters where a glyphed explosive trap is very useful. But even that is gone in legion. So what is it that you think they bring to the "team" ?

[Typhod]

Sure the number of spec are equal, but we are talking for a actual working raidcomposition. The reason you bring melee if for specific spells/abilitys and in some cases for extremly hight dps if blizzard fucks something up (Like they always do). SV bring NOTHING, while having the worst survivability of any class in the game. Looking back at 11 years of raiding, cant really think of any encounter where you wanted melee over ranged. Ranged usualy always have some kind of mechanic that you can ignore or make less annoying.

What exacly do you think traps does ? Have there been a single boss in the WOD where you used a trap ? Yes i know there a very minor encounters where a glyphed explosive trap is very useful. But even that is gone in legion. So what is it that you think they bring to the "team" ?

Isn't that the case for all melees then? We should only have ranged dps unless very specific encounters that benefits melees a lot.

I'm using Ice Trap on a few encounters to get a slow down before mobs spawn or as they are walking in a set direction and needs slowing. Like Gorefiend and Kilrogg. Caltrops and Steel Trap would be very useful here.

That said, I don't think Survival hunters will be on a high priority to bring to a raid in comparision to other melee classes, but I just think it false to say that they bring nothing.

EDIT: Maybe it ain't used right now. But the same can be said about Freezing Trap; being able to throw down a CC beforehand instead of needing to CC right as the mob spawn can be very beneficial for both your personal DPS and others DPS (a mage won't need to stop turn around and polymorph for example).
I'm not saying the traps are great but they have their uses which I'm sure will find their place in different encounters in Legion.

[Thursley]

1. Frost
2. Unholy
3. Havoc
4. Feral
5. Survival
6. Windwalker
7. Retribution
8. Assassination
9. Outlaw
10. Subtlety
11. Enhancement
12. Arms
13. Fury

So 13 melee specs actually, not 12, compared to 11 ranged. But either way the real issue is that for serious raiding you usually want a roughly 60-40 split of range-melee (for a 20 man raid normally 5-6 melee and 8-9 ranged). That means there just isn't enough room for all the melee specs, and it's looking like the other specs will generally provide more to a raid than survival unless survival's damage is particularly good.

The value I see for survival is that it should have the lowest barrier for swapping a player who is ranged to melee if you happen to want that for a particular fight, as no other class that can swap from ranged to melee keeps the same primary stat, but that's fairly niche and honestly hardcore guilds will often just replace the person with a different melee instead. For more casual raiding of course survival will be fine (assuming at least reasonably competitive damage) for all the usual reasons.

[Huggykaze]

A normal competative raid will N E V E R have a melee spot for a SV hunter. Period.

You mean, the 1% of the guilds which actually prefer to take 2 weeks off to play, right? Oh and the wannabes.

- - - Updated - - -

Sure the number of spec are equal, but we are talking for a actual working raidcomposition. The reason you bring melee if for specific spells/abilitys and in some cases for extremly hight dps if blizzard fucks something up (Like they always do). SV bring NOTHING, while having the worst survivability of any class in the game. Looking back at 11 years of raiding, cant really think of any encounter where you wanted melee over ranged. Ranged usualy always have some kind of mechanic that you can ignore or make less annoying.

What exacly do you think traps does ? Have there been a single boss in the WOD where you used a trap ? Yes i know there a very minor encounters where a glyphed explosive trap is very useful. But even that is gone in legion. So what is it that you think they bring to the "team" ?

What the guy before me said: Kil'rogg and Gorefiend, latter certainly not being a minor encounter... They can be useful at Soc too! Actually, you used them to trap P1 add in Mythic instead of endlessly kiting it. Truth be told, a lot of people in these forums are just biased against the idea of melee hunter for some reason.

[Eapoe]

You mean, the 1% of the guilds which actually prefer to take 2 weeks off to play, right? Oh and the wannabes.

- - - Updated - - -



What the guy before me said: Kil'rogg and Gorefiend, latter certainly not being a minor encounter... They can be useful at Soc too! Actually, you used them to trap P1 add in Mythic instead of endlessly kiting it. Truth be told, a lot of people in these forums are just biased against the idea of melee hunter for some reason.

Problem for useful traps though is the disappearance of trap launcher. Maybe it's still in the game, but I thought I saw that it's getting removed, and if that's the case, then to actually have the traps be useful for those niche boss fights, the player will have to run out of melee range to place them. Again, I haven't been following much on the PTR and that could be completely wrong, but if true, then it does take some of the "what a hunter brings" perks away.
It is also hard to justify bringing a hunter to a raid if other classes do the same thing but have more tools for mechanics, like soaking on Xhul. Hunters will have to pull very high dps compared to other classes for a real consideration. This is only for progression oriented guilds, obviously.

[Deleted]

So priest and druid new animations updated.
Has fury of the eagle been changed yet?

[Deleted]

Quick question: Where to get a spear fir next week? Don't want to spend 60k just tobtry it for an hour.

[Deleted]

you get a spear in mailbox when prepatch comes. the item lvl will dephend on your hfc progress. when i logged ptr/beta on my unter which is 13/13 it got 720

[Eapoe]

Quick question: Where to get a spear fir next week? Don't want to spend 60k just tobtry it for an hour.

There's a quest that gives you a 690 (or so) ilvl one during the event.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Why do people keep saying that there are way more melee specs than ranged? Sure Legion added 2 new melee specs in survival and Havoc, but that brings up the amount of melee dps specs to 12, with the ranged specs are now at 11. Its more balanced than ever now because in Wod we had 12 ranged specs and 10 melee specs. I do not find this a valid argument for why a survival hunter cant be in a raid.



I do think the traps are very valid to why you should bring a survival hunter. They are somewhat niche in comparision to those you mentioned but when they are getting used then they will shine for sure.

Freezing Trap is a nice CC, nothing special, but the Steel Trap talent is huge in the right scenarios. Allowing a long root with a nice DoT, to damage adds before they can reach the tank.

Tar Trap is just like we know Ice Trap today, its niche but are very useful if you use it right. But the real deal here is the Caltrops talent, this is the first AoE 70% slow as far as i know which can be extremely useful for specific encounters (im thinking Kilrogg adds as an example to get an even greater snare than the mostly used Concussive shot todays hunters use).

These are unfortunately talents but Steel Trap is simming high dps as of now iirc and Caltrops are a little bit worse but shines in AoE encounters.

With that said,I think there are reasons to bring a survival hunter, but they will fill a niche role. Then again, there arent always things to spak for a rogue with Cloak and so on.

You're saying the number of melee vs range specs is close to even, but most raids aren't taking an even number or melee vs. range. Ranged have an easier time target-swapping, finding clear places to stand, and watching for mechanics (since they don't have the boss filling their screen).

[Typhod]

Problem for useful traps though is the disappearance of trap launcher. Maybe it's still in the game, but I thought I saw that it's getting removed, and if that's the case, then to actually have the traps be useful for those niche boss fights, the player will have to run out of melee range to place them. Again, I haven't been following much on the PTR and that could be completely wrong, but if true, then it does take some of the "what a hunter brings" perks away.
It is also hard to justify bringing a hunter to a raid if other classes do the same thing but have more tools for mechanics, like soaking on Xhul. Hunters will have to pull very high dps compared to other classes for a real consideration. This is only for progression oriented guilds, obviously.

Both Freezing (Steel) and Tar Trap (Caltrops) are being thrown (40yds range) in Legion, only Explosive trap is placed automatically in melee. There are also several other abilities which have 40yds range as Survival, making them somewhat effective when needing to kill adds from far away. Abilities like: Spitting Cobra, Dragonsfire Grenade, Throwing Axes, A Murder of Crows and maybe some more if I missed any.

You're saying the number of melee vs range specs is close to even, but most raids aren't taking an even number or melee vs. range. Ranged have an easier time target-swapping, finding clear places to stand, and watching for mechanics (since they don't have the boss filling their screen).

This is true and a very valid post of why the competition in melee is very high in Legion. I just don't think it will be as high as people says-

[Huggykaze]

Problem for useful traps though is the disappearance of trap launcher. Maybe it's still in the game, but I thought I saw that it's getting removed, and if that's the case, then to actually have the traps be useful for those niche boss fights, the player will have to run out of melee range to place them. Again, I haven't been following much on the PTR and that could be completely wrong, but if true, then it does take some of the "what a hunter brings" perks away.
It is also hard to justify bringing a hunter to a raid if other classes do the same thing but have more tools for mechanics, like soaking on Xhul. Hunters will have to pull very high dps compared to other classes for a real consideration. This is only for progression oriented guilds, obviously.

I'd say this is for top300 or so oriented guilds, we started 2 months late, but still aimed to clear asap, yet we found ourselves with like 7-8 melee at some points during progression :P