PSA: Legion Prepatch Guides - Azortharion

[Dracodraco]

#1 is easily explained - because Stampede and Crows will update dynamically. They don't miss out on the benefit of BW just because they're used before. In contrast, if you spend 2 globals during BW applying stampede and crows, you lose out on 25% of the BW's benefit that could be used on other, actually damaging abilities.

[thekingkbb]

Thanks for putting this togeether Az!

[bumbumboris]

1) I dont think they benefit from it.
3) No it is a bonus from t19 4p

1) Azortharion claims in the forum on icy-vains it does.
3) t19 4p: "When you use Bestial Wrath, all of your currently summoned Dire Beasts gain 20% increased damage for 10 sec." One thing does not rule out the other, not necessarily. both can be, doesn´t it?

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#1 is easily explained - because Stampede and Crows will update dynamically. They don't miss out on the benefit of BW just because they're used before. In contrast, if you spend 2 globals during BW applying stampede and crows, you lose out on 25% of the BW's benefit that could be used on other, actually damaging abilities.

This makes sense, thx. Stampede causes no GCD by the way. But with the one GCD from crows your argument is still valid.

One more question: can I macro BW with KC? I dimly remember, there was an issue earlier, and the BW buff did not count in such a macro for the first KC.

[Azortharion]

You could, but I see no reason why you would.

I mostly intended for this thread to be a signal boost. I welcome the discussion, but if you want answers from me personally, http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/foru...uide-comments/ is probably your best bet. I am about 86% less of an asshole there too.

[Dracodraco]

1)



This makes sense, thx. Stampede causes no GCD by the way. But with the one GCD from crows your argument is still valid.

One more question: can I macro BW with KC? I dimly remember, there was an issue earlier, and the BW buff did not count in such a macro for the first KC.

Ah, wasn't aware that Stampede has changed, not played around with BM since MM is stronger. That said, there's still the argument that you'd lose out on empowered hits from Stampede (if you activate BW then Stampede you'll likely lose out on a BW-empowered hit).

You could, but I see no reason why you would.

I mostly intended for this thread to be a signal boost. I welcome the discussion, but if you want answers from me personally, http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/foru...uide-comments/ is probably your best bet. I am about 86% less of an asshole there too.

86% of ∞ asshole is still ∞ asshole, pls Azor.

And he probably means because the macro with BW/KC would force the two abilities to go off at the same time (because BW is/was off the GBC), thus causing the KC to not be empowered. Is that actually fixed now?

[bumbumboris]

And he probably means because the macro with BW/KC would force the two abilities to go off at the same time (because BW is/was off the GBC), thus causing the KC to not be empowered. Is that actually fixed now?

just tested: and no, it is not fixed

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Ah, wasn't aware that Stampede has changed, not played around with BM since MM is stronger. That said, there's still the argument that you'd lose out on empowered hits from Stampede (if you activate BW then Stampede you'll likely lose out on a BW-empowered hit).

just tested: you will not lose a single tick from stampede, because its dynamic refreshment seems to be delayed (because the beasts need some time to reach target). it is save when you stand further away from your target. you maybe could lose a tick, when you stay close to the target. on the other hand you lose one tick of the crows, no matter of range.

by the way, you may macro stampede and crows together for the opener, so you do not waste a millisecond.

and even tested: dire beast in fact does not benefit from BW. so it is still a mystery for me why it is in front of KC in the opener while it is behind KC in the priority list. maybe i should indeed ask on icy-veins again.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

You could, but I see no reason why you would.

I mostly intended for this thread to be a signal boost. I welcome the discussion, but if you want answers from me personally, http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/foru...uide-comments/ is probably your best bet. I am about 86% less of an asshole there too.

I posted a comment there this morning, asking for more guidance on the smoothest way to insert Raptor Strike into the rotation. Get the buff up early, or wait till you've spent all your Mongoose Strikes and other heavy-hitters? Spam RSx4 the first time you use it, or weave it in as a filler and let the buff build gradually? Looking forward to your reply, and maybe you could add this to the rotation part of your guide?

[PowerOfTwo]

I am about 86% less of an asshole there too.

Heh yeah you seem realy moody mate :P i remember seeing you on Final Boss at the start of HFC thiought "what a chill guy" so i jumped into the IRC for some clarification and got a snappy answer along the lines of "wtf how can you even ask that ya donkey?!" :P

In either case the guides are obviosly very well put together so thanks for those

OT: Is there something similar to these for mages floating around? switching Mage for Legion.

[Lucyinthesky]

You'll start by precasting aimed shot (if without 4 set), then casting Barrage instantly in combat (as it's the highest priority move you'll have available - no marked shot off the bat), hope Marking procs, use Sidewinders to regain barrage focus (and get a charge recharging), then you'll either be using Marked shot (if you got a Marking proc of your first sidewinder), or Aimed shot (to burn off focus), and at that point you just keep following the priority in the guide.

Unsure if you should cast an aimed shot even with 4 set to burn more focus than just barrage, though.

You remember playing MM during Bastion of Twilight? right around the time where hardcasting became essential, i think it will be played like that, but only for the lnl procs.

[Dracodraco]

You remember playing MM during Bastion of Twilight? right around the time where hardcasting became essential, i think it will be played like that, but only for the lnl procs.

Pretty much, although it's difficult for "hardcast aimed" to play any other way because the entire identity of the spec literally is "I gotta stand here to cast this aimed shot", both back then and now :P.

[Lucyinthesky]

Pretty much, although it's difficult for "hardcast aimed" to play any other way because the entire identity of the spec literally is "I gotta stand here to cast this aimed shot", both back then and now :P.

I used to do it this way in firelands on bosses like baleroc.

Arcane spam with mastery as main stat prio, then just use aimed when it procced from lnl, got rank 2 before they nerfed him but i also got to stand still the entire fight tho.

[Unusual]

edit: Incidentally, this is why we don't use simulations for everything in life, we do science. Simulations are great when you're sure they're accurate but if you can no longer depend on that then they're completely worthless.

Is this a joke? They don't simulate things in science? Then what in the hell are experiments? You have to be trolling, right? Now I see why Azor has the attitude that he does, I don't blame the poor man one bit.

[MiladyArrow]

Thanks for putting these together!

[Azortharion]

Is this a joke? They don't simulate things in science? Then what is the hell are experiments? You have to be trolling, right? Now I see why Azor has the attitude that he does, I don't blame the poor man one bit.

You ain't seen nothing yet.

[MdAlmighty]

Why haven't I seen a single simulation for legion yet? In the previous betas, simulation were thrown at me every week, even though the balancing was broken at the time.

[Deleted]

Just download it and test stuff for urself.
http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D

[Bragaul]

Just download it and test stuff for urself.
(not even in the quotes apparently!)

Thanks for that link! The release versions aren't out yet (whoa, I can't post links yet ><) and I was thinking that they were probably internally shared or something

[Azortharion]

Why haven't I seen a single simulation for legion yet? In the previous betas, simulation were thrown at me every week, even though the balancing was broken at the time.

Because no one with a sound mind would do that a month+ before release. I didn't even begin working numbers/sims the prepatch till a week before release or so. Only worthwhile simcraft contributions you can make right now is testing its numbers out vs ingame in similar situations, running unorthodox setups and rotations, finding issues basically.

[3clipse]

Is this a joke? They don't simulate things in science? Then what in the hell are experiments? You have to be trolling, right? Now I see why Azor has the attitude that he does, I don't blame the poor man one bit.

Well, I'm a scientist IRL, so I feel compelled to answer this post that's just trying to insult me, not actually ask questions, sincerely.

Simulations aren't experiments! Simulations are simulations. You put in your constants, variables, and the framework you've programmed to model reality, and you get some results, but they're only as accurate as what you put in. If you're testing, say, allele frequencies in a large population, and you put in a frequency of 0.8 for an allele that's actually 0.2 in nature, your results are gonna suck dick. The simulations we can do accurately are actually very limited compared to what we actually test experimentally, because you have to be sure that every constant and variable you're plugging in accurately represents what you'd expect to see in the real world (for an extreme example, this is why NASA actually sends robots to Mars instead of just simulating Mars based on data from orbiters).

Experiments test things in the actual real world, and thus have substantially fewer variables you can actually control. The flipside of this is that if you observe an allele frequency for a given gene of 0.8, e.g., you know for a fact that's real. Simulations are, in theory, substantially more powerful than experiments, both because you can do things you couldn't do in real life and because you can get orders of magnitude more replicates than you could ever do in a lab. In practice, what you can actually simulate is quite limited, because being able to accurate account for everything in a given system is quite difficult, and the difficulty increases exponentially as you add more degrees of freedom. Typically, we use simulations to either anticipate the best way to do a given experiment (i.e. what method do we think will give us the most useful results), or extrapolate from a set of experiments to a larger context with many more replicates. You don't do de novo simulation, because who even knows if your results will be meaningful in any real sense.

So in WoW terms, SimC is a simulation, aggregating Recount/Skada parses is an experiment. Simulation is great. But simulation has some gigantic caveats, and it needs to be backed up by experimental data to sanity check the simulation, and the general gist of this thread (to my eyes, at least, it's entirely possible I misinterpreted what was posted) has been "only simulations are accurate, testing damage/DPS in game doesn't tell you anything," which I reflexively argue against because it's so easy for one wrong variable to ruin the entire simulation. Simulations are great. But they're not flawless, and one should probably at least attempt to confirm that what a simulation tells you is optimal is actually optimal in game.

[Azortharion]

So where are your logs, Skada, Recount info that refutes the sim results? Jesus fucking christ.