Can Islam And Western Society Ever Peacefully Co-exist?

[tankbug]

U missed the statistic that 2,800 attacks on women in the name of honour. IS that a small enough number for you?

We were talking about deaths caused by muslims going moderate/atheist, not women getting beaten or worse by terrible husbonds or family members.
But ok, that number is high, but are they caused by religion? How many beatings were reported in the UK from non-muslims?

So its ok to throw acid in a girls face?

Nope, but does it say in the quran that this is the appropriate response to a loss of honor?

Its ok to permantly disfigure girls in your country in the name of religion?

Nope, but is this done in the name of religion? Let me reference your source once more:

"- HBV is not associated with a particular religion or religious practice, and has been recorded
across Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim and Sikh communities. However, in the UK, the
communities deemed by women’s rights activists to be most at risk are those with links to South
Asia, which, according to the 2011 census, overwhelmingly follow Islam, Hinduism or Sikhism.
Furthermore, while predominantly considered to be a ‘cultural’ practise, HBV can be caused
by the ‘dishonour’ of a family brought about by a relationship that transgresses religious
boundaries"

Seriously dude... ONE death or attack is too fukking many...

Ok, even one is too many, but for what? What is the threat here? What are we gonna do? What's the right reaction? There are a lot of terrible things going on in the world, and people getting killed and tortured for no reason. How do we stop all of that from happening?

[Venziir]

So yeah, just quoting myself to show that I can literally call this at any given point on this forum and be proven right on the same page most of the times. I'm glad this forum doesn't tolerate bigotry and racism or hate speech. So glad the mods are doing their job, so so glad.



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Missing the point...

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It's not just life, it's discrimination as well. And it's not just lying, they can even bloody convert to Christianity if it takes that to keep them safe.

No, I think that you are the one to miss the point. My original point was, that there are muslims who wish to live a moderate life, and there are fanatics who wish to stop them from doing so, through any means necesarry.

[Blobfish]

Muslims aren't allowed to lie about their faith.
The only exception is when you have to fear for your life, that is taqqiya.

According to the typical Muslim-bashers however it's a law that tells Muslims they should lie about supporting terrorism.

Thank you Kango...

Another solution could be for Western Nations to Block Internet traffic
that is out to radicalize Muslims already living in their Country

I actually hope that my country blocks internet pedophile sites and radical Islam sites

[Slant]

Ok, even one is too many, but for what? What is the threat here? What are we gonna do? What's the right reaction? There are a lot of terrible things going on in the world, and people getting killed and tortured for no reason. How do we stop all of that from happening?

Hi. Newsflash: Life's shit. It's always been shit. How do we make it less shit? We pay the police to stop the bad dudes from doing bad dude shit. Sometimes you don't get them, but many times you do. And if some idiots stopped posting bullshit on this forum and be productive members of society instead of the paranoid self centered racist assholes that they are, we'd also have a lot less trouble in the world.

Alas, being an asocial dick seems to be in vogue these days.

[Venziir]

Thank you Kango...

Another solution could be for Western Nations to Block Internet traffic
that is out to radicalize Muslims already living in their Country

I actually hope that my country blocks internet pedophile sites and radical Islam sites

Banning never works though. If people really want something, they'll get it, one way or the other.
Besides, most European countries are hard at work banning various facebook and twitter accounts belonging to ISIS members and whatnot. Doesn't seem to work though.

[Deleted]

Hi. Newsflash: Life's shit. It's always been shit. How do we make it less shit? We pay the police to stop the bad dudes from doing bad dude shit. Sometimes you don't get them, but many times you do. And if some idiots stopped posting bullshit on this forum and be productive members of society instead of the paranoid self centered racist assholes that they are, we'd also have a lot less trouble in the world.

Alas, being an asocial dick seems to be in vogue these days.

And here I though we paid the police to protect the wealthy and the privileged.

[Slant]

No, I think that you are the one to miss the point. My original point was, that there are muslims who wish to live a moderate life, and there are fanatics who wish to stop them from doing so, through any means necesarry.

You literally responded to me pointing out that Islam needs a reformation from within, because as long as outside forces keep pounding on Islam, they'll stay united and orthodox. That's just a natural defense reaction. You then tell me how Chomeini took over Iran is a sign for Islam being bad... and when I tell you that you're missing the point, because the US trying to coup Iran into a puppet state of the US is exactly the type of "outside force pounding on islam", you tell me I'm not getting it?

That's all kinds of stupid, you do realise that, right? I engaged in your argument, added information and posed a different view and you actually went "Fuckit" in your head and posted some more of the same shit, completely disregarding what I'm saying.

[Mayhem]

Banning never works though. If people really want something, they'll get it, one way or the other.

You think people actively seek to become radicalized? Do words have a different meaning where you´re from?

[Venziir]

You literally responded to me pointing out that Islam needs a reformation from within, because as long as outside forces keep pounding on Islam, they'll stay united and orthodox. That's just a natural defense reaction. You then tell me how Chomeini took over Iran is a sign for Islam being bad... and when I tell you that you're missing the point, because the US trying to coup Iran into a puppet state of the US is exactly the type of "outside force pounding on islam", you tell me I'm not getting it?

That's all kinds of stupid, you do realise that, right? I engaged in your argument, added information and posed a different view and you actually went "Fuckit" in your head and posted some more of the same shit, completely disregarding what I'm saying.

You didn't really though,- all you wrote was "Missing the point", that's not overly informative, if anything it's mildly provocative.

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You think people actively seek to become radicalized? Do words have a different meaning where you´re from?

Some people do, sadly. They experience something that pisses them off, and they seek a solution, which sometimes leads to just that.
If people didn't seek to become radicalized, then ISIS and other groups wouldn't bother recruiting or campaigning obviously.

[Xeones]

Islam to western society is literally apples to oranges. You're really comparing 3rd world nations to 1st world nations.

For hundreds of years the bible was used as justification for slavery and all kinds of other crimes. You still have people trying to use the bible as justification for crimes against "western society" and no one ever asks if the two can peacefully co-exist.

Once you get the people to embrace ideas of freedom and human rights their interpretation of religion will change just as the interpretation of Christianity changed as people came to embrace rights and freedom.

[Venziir]

Islam to western society is literally apples to oranges. You're really comparing 3rd world nations to 1st world nations.

For hundreds of years the bible was used as justification for slavery and all kinds of other crimes. You still have people trying to use the bible as justification for crimes against "western society" and no one ever asks if the two can peacefully co-exist.

Once you get the people to embrace ideas of freedom and human rights their interpretation of religion will change just as the interpretation of Christianity changed as people came to embrace rights and freedom.

A lot of muslim countries aren't exatly 3rd world nations.

[Slant]

You think people actively seek to become radicalized? Do words have a different meaning where you´re from?

To become radicalised? Not per se. But apparently, the main motivation for them is to find an anchor, a sort of ideological "home". They feel like strangers in a country that doesn't accept them (Hi, MMO-C Nazi brigade, that's you fuckwits :P) so when someone offers them tradition, customs and company they feel familiar with (through family or even their homeland), they'll jump to it and abandon all attempts to "integrate" into our societies.

See, the point is that everyone talks about "integration" but people don't know what they mean... they just think super abstract and want "them to integrate". That's it, simple case eh? Just integrate, you fucking towelhead. Well, easier said than done when things are different and people from the country you're in literally tell you that you're unable to integrate (Yo, MMO-C nazi asshats, again this is you!). So why bother? The guys that do integrate have at some point made a decision to just jump into the new culture and see how they can arrange it in a manner that they like and prefer. It doesn't mean they throw away their old culture, it means they literally take bits and pieces that they like and create a new environment for themselves on an individual basis that they like.

For example the Muslima that doesn't wear a hajib until she goes to the Mosque. Or the Muslima that wears a hajib but has funky blue hair and all kinds of naughty piercings. Or take the million young Turks that used to listen primarily to American Hip Hop... integration, ACTUAL practical integration... it happens on its own, it's nothing you can force. But the asshat brigade is full of generation twitter spoiled pricks that want results now. Because when you kill a boss in WoW, you get instant loot. They don't want to wait until things happen by themselves, organically.

And that's why this whole coexistance debate is doomed to fail.

[Mayhem]

Some people do, sadly. They experience something that pisses them off, and they seek a solution, which sometimes leads to just that.
If people didn't seek to become radicalized, then ISIS and other groups wouldn't bother recruiting or campaigning obviously.

... By your logic people seek advertisement, why else should companies bother with making them.

[Slant]

You didn't really though,- all you wrote was "Missing the point", that's not overly informative, if anything it's mildly provocative.

Ignoring my post is provocative. Not knowing history and responding to my post without asking what I was talking about is provocative. Me telling you you're missing the point? That's a pathetic last ditch attempt to keep you in the conversation before I move on to people that actually know what I'm talking about.

[uxzuigal]

I do not think it possible. But I belive it's more about western culture vs. middle eastern culture also. Even Christians from the middle east has some rather "crazy" ideas of honor. A friend of mine, female, from borderregion Syria (moved here 20 years ago) has family that threaten to kill her if she marries or dates someone other than another Christian from Syria region.. There are also places you "cannot go" if you are Muslim, or Christian in certain towns without ending in trouble... Your last name is also extremely important as it usualy shows if you are muslim or christian, much like your last name could get you killed in Ireland some year back. From her saying, such things is common. Her statement fits well with what I've been told by others, but is still shocking. But: No Islam, just culture.

[May90]

They already do, do they not?

Inb4 "But there have been a few terrorist attacks! Clearly we are at war with 1.6 billion Muslims!"

[Mayhem]

To become radicalised? Not per se. But apparently, the main motivation for them is to find an anchor, a sort of ideological "home". They feel like strangers in a country that doesn't accept them (Hi, MMO-C Nazi brigade, that's you fuckwits :P) so when someone offers them tradition, customs and company they feel familiar with (through family or even their homeland), they'll jump to it and abandon all attempts to "integrate" into our societies.

See, the point is that everyone talks about "integration" but people don't know what they mean... they just think super abstract and want "them to integrate". That's it, simple case eh? Just integrate, you fucking towelhead. Well, easier said than done when things are different and people from the country you're in literally tell you that you're unable to integrate (Yo, MMO-C nazi asshats, again this is you!). So why bother? The guys that do integrate have at some point made a decision to just jump into the new culture and see how they can arrange it in a manner that they like and prefer. It doesn't mean they throw away their old culture, it means they literally take bits and pieces that they like and create a new environment for themselves on an individual basis that they like.

For example the Muslima that doesn't wear a hajib until she goes to the Mosque. Or the Muslima that wears a hajib but has funky blue hair and all kinds of naughty piercings. Or take the million young Turks that used to listen primarily to American Hip Hop... integration, ACTUAL practical integration... it happens on its own, it's nothing you can force. But the asshat brigade is full of generation twitter spoiled pricks that want results now. Because when you kill a boss in WoW, you get instant loot. They don't want to wait until things happen by themselves, organically.

And that's why this whole coexistance debate is doomed to fail.

Can´t say i disagree, i probably would´ve worded it a bit different though. ^^

[Venziir]

... By your logic people seek advertisement, why else should companies bother with making them.

Advertisements, not so much, but the products - yes. Besides, I don't get why you are even trying to have an argument here, when we KNOW that some muslims are actively seeking out ISIS, Boko Haram and all the other lovely groups, to join them. We KNOW that there are people out there, to actively seek out radicalisation.

[Mayhem]

Advertisements, not so much, but the products - yes. Besides, I don't get why you are even trying to have an argument here, when we KNOW that some muslims are actively seeking out ISIS, Boko Haram and all the other lovely groups, to join them. We KNOW that there are people out there, to actively seek out radicalisation.

The ones that seek out these groups are already radicalized.

[Venziir]

Ignoring my post is provocative. Not knowing history and responding to my post without asking what I was talking about is provocative. Me telling you you're missing the point? That's a pathetic last ditch attempt to keep you in the conversation before I move on to people that actually know what I'm talking about.

I'm guessing you ignored the rest of the wording and just went straight for "provocative", and apparently got overly provoked, not much I can do about that. At no point did I ignore anything you posted, but your superiority complex is getting old so...