Can Islam And Western Society Ever Peacefully Co-exist?

**Slant** · 2016-07-25, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by uxzuigal

I do not think it possible. But I belive it's more about western culture vs. middle eastern culture also. Even Christians from the middle east has some rather "crazy" ideas of honor. A friend of mine, female, from borderregion Syria (moved here 20 years ago) has family that threaten to kill her if she marries or dates someone other than another Christian from Syria region.. There are also places you "cannot go" if you are Muslim, or Christian in certain towns without ending in trouble... Your last name is also extremely important as it usualy shows if you are muslim or christian, much like your last name could get you killed in Ireland some year back. From her saying, such things is common. Her statement fits well with what I've been told by others, but is still shocking. But: No Islam, just culture.

Not culture. People. We have to realise and say it out loud: It's not culture that's incompatible. It's people not wanting to be compatible. It's us and them people. Cultures don't give a fuck about other cultures, that's the whole point of them. So how about we stop talking abstract bullshit and get down to the real thing, people hating other people. And that's the bottom line of it, pure and simple.

Deleted · 2016-07-25, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Lost Zero

It's a tricky one. Had a very good discussion with a friend of mine the other day. She is pretty right leaning while I tend more center/left. But I'll give her that she made some arguments that I couldn't really counter.

The main one is that fundamental Islam has a lot of elements that inevitably lead to conflicts with other religions and ideologies, often violently and that it's very difficult to make peace with anyone who at a certain level wants you dead.

Without going into the ins and outs of religion in general, is there any way that Muslims in general can integrate with Western society at large or are we going to reach a point where a religion is going to need to be treated like a fringe hate group?

Is it a matter of culture and application/misapplication of the faith, or is it a problem with the teachings themselves?

Note: I'm talking about fundamentalist Islam here. I am aware that there are a lot of people who practice all sorts of religion peacefully.

I'm also not trying to take any sides here. I am very much ignorant on what exactly Islamism entails and what is so scary about it.

EDIT: 5 Pages thus far without major flames and some pretty interesting information from both sides. Good reading thus far.

It IS possible with a few neutron bombs (which would have next to none actual casualtier).

**Venziir** · 2016-07-25, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Mayhem

The ones that seek out these groups are already radicalized.

And how do you think they became that?

**Slant** · 2016-07-25, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Mayhem

The ones that seek out these groups are already radicalized.

Oh, in my mind Salafism is just a tiny step away from IS. The difference is, we got a tight leash on the Salafist dogs. Not tight enough, I agree. But there's a fine line after which "having a tight leash" becomes opression and you practically hand them the justification for their radical teachings.

Deleted · 2016-07-25, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by tankbug

We were talking about deaths caused by muslims going moderate/atheist, not women getting beaten or worse by terrible husbonds or family members.

NO

We were talking about Islamic compatibility with Western society.

Originally Posted by tankbug

But ok, that number is high, but are they caused by religion? How many beatings were reported in the UK from non-muslims?

We are discussing Islamic compatibility with Western society.

And your point is discussing religious attacks against women. Exactly how many other religions advocate attacking/killing women as part of their doctrine?

Originally Posted by tankbug

Nope, but does it say in the quran that this is the appropriate response to a loss of honor?

Yes it does. And the fact that this is acceptable in certain Muslim areas/countries demonstrates that this is acceptable and can be justified from the Qu'ran.

Originally Posted by tankbug

Nope, but is this done in the name of religion? Let me reference your source once more:

"- HBV is not associated with a particular religion or religious practice, and has been recorded
across Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim and Sikh communities. However, in the UK, the
communities deemed by women’s rights activists to be most at risk are those with links to South
Asia, which, according to the 2011 census, overwhelmingly follow Islam, Hinduism or Sikhism.
Furthermore, while predominantly considered to be a ‘cultural’ practise, HBV can be caused
by the ‘dishonour’ of a family brought about by a relationship that transgresses religious
boundaries"

So u agree with me.

Well done.

Originally Posted by tankbug

Ok, even one is too many, but for what? What is the threat here? What are we gonna do? What's the right reaction? There are a lot of terrible things going on in the world, and people getting killed and tortured for no reason. How do we stop all of that from happening?

This thread is asking the question whether Islam and Western Society can live together... what question are you responding to?

Im demonstrating that the answer is no.

That doesnt mean that Muslims cannot live in Western countries... it simple means that the religion of Islam is not compatible with Western values. It isnt, theyre too fukking different... end of discussion.

**Saiona** · 2016-07-25, 11:42 AM

Nope and we don't need Islam in western society. If they want to go through a reformation then we can start talking.

**Mayhem** · 2016-07-25, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Venziir

And how do you think they became that?

By being radicalized... seriously, but not seeking to be radicalized.

**Venziir** · 2016-07-25, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Mayhem

By being radicalized... seriously, but not seeking to be radicalized.

Radicalisation doesn't just happen though.

**Slant** · 2016-07-25, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Venziir

I'm guessing you ignored the rest of the wording and just went straight for "provocative", and apparently got overly provoked, not much I can do about that. At no point did I ignore anything you posted, but your superiority complex is getting old so...

No, I read the post and saw nothing in it remotely connecting to the point I was making. Literally ignoring the point I was making, in fact. Jesus... what's wrong with your reading, I spelled it out for you already...

**Majestic12** · 2016-07-25, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Saiona

Nope and we don't need Islam in western society. If they want to go through a reformation then we can start talking.

I'm not sure why you say "Need". Of course we don't need Islam in Western society. We don't need any religion and shouldn't need one either.

**Fencers** · 2016-07-25, 11:46 AM

Yes, of course. Other religions have and Islam is not a special religion.

**Venziir** · 2016-07-25, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Slant

No, I read the post and saw nothing in it remotely connecting to the point I was making. Literally ignoring the point I was making, in fact. Jesus... what's wrong with your reading, I spelled it out for you already...

... Whatever...

**Mayhem** · 2016-07-25, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Slant

Oh, in my mind Salafism is just a tiny step away from IS. The difference is, we got a tight leash on the Salafist dogs. Not tight enough, I agree. But there's a fine line after which "having a tight leash" becomes opression and you practically hand them the justification for their radical teachings.

Well i´m not too fond of religions in general, but as long as we have freedom of religion laws and they qualify as a religion, then they have every right to do so. I do think we should keep tabs on certain people though, not whole groups of people defined by something as arbitrary as same religion. This however only works if we actually work together with their representatives.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Venziir

Radicalisation doesn't just happen though.

Never said it does. Of course there are reasons, but people seeking out to become radicalized is a number close to nil, because you´re already radicalized if you actively seek out the radicals. So targeting their adverts and deny them the means to reach out to people should reduce the number of people who are becoming radicalized online.

Deleted · 2016-07-25, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by 0123456789

You're overgeneralising. 6 girls in my direct group of friends has been raped or molested. All but one by white males with a background based on Christian values. I'm taking about fathers, uncles, neighbours and bosses. I would say that's 6 too many. Doesn't mean we can't co-exist with white males with Christian background. You can't just lump 1.57 billion people in one massive group.

I'm not saying that there aren't structural problems within certain Islamic groups or that they are OK and shouldn't be dealt with. However these are groups within groups, and not close to being a decent representation of the 1.57 Muslims out there. As a couple people here have already stated this kind of behaviour is linked to socio-economic conditions more than it is linked to religion.

Those attacks were not done in the name of a religion.

We are talking about Honour Killings. A very Muslim problem.

**TheMediator** · 2016-07-25, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by primalmatter

Not while Western society isn't Islam.

Basically /thread. Christianity was designed to co-exist and allow subservience to secular government. Islam was designed to create unrest in the people and overthrow secular government in order to install Islamic law. Islam says that Muslims should be first class citizens, Christians/Jews should be second class citizens, and everyone else should be dead, it says this unambiguously. To a Muslim, the world order is out of alignment whenever a Muslim doesn't get his way over a non-Muslim, etc.

**Wildtree** · 2016-07-25, 11:59 AM

Can Islam And Western Society Ever Peacefully Co-exist?
Can they not?
Where were we the last 1400 years?
Maybe the current events have next to nothing to do with religion? Ever thought about that?

Let's dive in a second..
Did the Crusades have to do with religion?
Did the Ottoman Empire have to do with religion?
The answer to both would be no, and yes.
In both cases the rabble was dragged along to the bidding of their masters.
They were told this and that, and the stupid uneducated plebs happily followed along drooling for heroism and determination.
While the real reason was power mongering of the masters.

And that is what we find nowadays again.
The uneducated rabble jumps right in again. It has more blood coming out of it's eyes than a menstruating virgin out of her vagina.
That's valid for both sides, of course. And again, no one's asking for the real reasons. No one questions the real motives.

Point and fact, the current events stand witness how we humans are still ways ahead from being really civilized. How our societies how we're still just as dumb as they came 1000 years, 2000 years, 3000 years ago. And we won't progress until we manage to shake off that stupidity that appears to be ingrained in us, as part of human nature.

The only thing that changed... The amount of people that actually really ask for the real motives, that amount is growing vs back in the dark ages.

**Blobfish** · 2016-07-25, 11:59 AM

Time to bring back Waterboarding

**Tumble** · 2016-07-25, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Venziir

In due time perhaps, though it's worth considering that Islam is about 600 years younger and never had a reformation, which is surely needs.

In order for this to happen muslims need to accept flaws in the Quarn that lead to the modern day extremists. However, instead of seeing fault in the archaic teachings they just keep responding with "they aren't real muslims" when in fact they follow the book more strictly than most.

**tankbug** · 2016-07-25, 12:02 PM