Iraq war dodgers urge Prime Minister Trudeau to let them stay

[Tennis]

Thing is TA, morally unjust or not, they had an option.. a legal option... they could have filed for conscientious objector... they didn't... they fucking deserted... they deserve to live the rest of their life looking over their shoulder. Actions have consequences. I say strip them of their US citizenship and you can keep them.

Why didn't they file for conscientious objector and faced the consequences?

[Arcrin]

Why didn't they file for conscientious objector and faced the consequences?

maybe cause they didnt know about or because they're stupid.

[Triskell]

Absolute lol at the people saying that if they want to quit the job, they just quit.
It depends on the contract. Simple as that. Maybe you can quit your current job with its completely vanilla job contract. Meanwhile it is entirely possible in many fields to sign a contract that: a)voids significant part of your remuneration packages, particularly if it includes stock options but also including insurance packages, b)can lead into fines for as high as your agreed salary for the duration remaining on your contract, c)can bind your professional qualifications for the duration remaining on your contract, i.e. you will not be able to make use of it for any other company until that time has lapsed.
So no, you cannot just say I can just quit if you signed a contract saying otherwise. Whatever the job.

What fantasy land are you living in where people sign those employment contracts?? Sure your options don't vest, and insurance is cancelled, but no one will sign a contract with fines, and non being able to use professional credentials. And even so, you can still quit, unlike military where you cannot

[Theinquisition]

Thing is TA, morally unjust or not, they had an option.. a legal option... they could have filed for conscientious objector... they didn't... they fucking deserted... they deserve to live the rest of their life looking over their shoulder. Actions have consequences. I say strip them of their US citizenship and you can keep them.

Agreed.

I'd say that if Canada wants to shelter them so bad, we should just strip the deserters of their citizenship and let Canada have them. We have enough cowards here.

[Deleted]

Thing is TA, morally unjust or not, they had an option.. a legal option... they could have filed for conscientious objector... they didn't... they fucking deserted... they deserve to live the rest of their life looking over their shoulder.

Obviously they should have gone to Iraq and participated in an illegal and unsuccessful invasion that left a power vacuum which gave rise to ISIS.

You've got to obey orders haven't you?

[Seranthor]

Why didn't they file for conscientious objector and faced the consequences?

filing CO they probably would have gotten discharged, or sent somewhere that they wouldn't see combat.

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Obviously they should have gone to Iraq and participated in an illegal and unsuccessful invasion that left a power vacuum which gave rise to ISIS.

You've got to obey orders haven't you?

Advanta, the answer is brutally simple... you dont want to get sent to a combat zone... dont join the military, EVER. Saying they didn't KNOW they could get sent to a combat zone is pure idiocy... The power vacuum you speak of was created AFTER Obama pulled US troops out (Thanks Obama). If you are going to continue to respond to me at least know what you are talking about, please.

[Deleted]

Advanta, the answer is brutally simple... you dont want to get sent to a combat zone... dont join the military, EVER. Saying they didn't KNOW they could get sent to a combat zone is pure idiocy... The power vacuum you speak of was created AFTER Obama pulled US troops out (Thanks Obama). If you are going to continue to respond to me at least know what you are talking about, please.

Well they probably thought they were doing a good thing and it dawned on them slowly that they weren't as information about the lack of WMD etc came to light. That, as you presumably know, is essentially the case that the families of dead servicement are bringing against Tony Blair.

As for the Obama bullshit please. The Americans never dealt with al-quaeda in iraq as their own military reports acknowledge. ISIS would have arisen faster if they had stayed.

[Theinquisition]

filing CO they probably would have gotten discharged, or sent somewhere that they wouldn't see combat.

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Advanta, the answer is brutally simple... you dont want to get sent to a combat zone... dont join the military, EVER. Saying they didn't KNOW they could get sent to a combat zone is pure idiocy... The power vacuum you speak of was created AFTER Obama pulled US troops out (Thanks Obama). If you are going to continue to respond to me at least know what you are talking about, please.

Wait wait...hold on...you mean I might have to be deployed if I'm in the army....whoa.

[Thimagryn]

You are fully aware and made aware from several people, several different times when you sign up what that paper says and the impact it will have on your life and future. What could come to pass and what might not be. So I dont feel pity that they might have to face a court of law to own up to the laws that they broke and the vows that they took and broke

From a legal sense, yes. But from the time of sign up to the current state of their lives and the state of the world, many things could change the idea of fighting for country and fighting in a war that one may or may not feel justified in fighting in. Yes, these things are made known from the time you sign up and are very clear and literal, but what does it mean to an inexperienced and carefree 18yr old, and 20 years later when they've matured, with family, and are suddenly faced with a war they don't believe in? That piece of paper has more control over their future than they could realize.

I don't pity them for the legal ramifications that may await them, but it's still a sad situation.

[Deleted]

Wait wait...hold on...you mean I might have to be deployed if I'm in the army....whoa.

Roughly translated thats what a prisoner at the Nuremberg trials said.

[Theinquisition]

From a legal sense, yes. But from the time of sign up to the current state of their lives and the state of the world, many things could change the idea of fighting for country and fighting in a war that one may or may not feel justified in fighting in. Yes, these things are made known from the time you sign up and are very clear and literal, but what does it mean to an inexperienced and carefree 18yr old, and 20 years later when they've matured, with family, and are suddenly faced with a war they don't believe in? That piece of paper has more control over their future than they could realize.

I don't pity them for the legal ramifications that may await them, but it's still a sad situation.

Heres the thing though, coming from a combat veteran.

When you're in for a while and have time and heart invested in it, you forget about the politics. When you deploy its more about keeping the guy to the left and right of you alive. When you desert, you're not just deserting your obligations, but you are also deserting your friends and brothers in arms. It is cowardice of the highest form.

[Seranthor]

Well they probably thought they were doing a good thing and it dawned on them slowly that they weren't as information about the lack of WMD etc came to light. That, as you presumably know, is essentially the case that the families of dead servicement are bringing against Tony Blair.

As for the Obama bullshit please. The Americans never dealt with al-quaeda in iraq as their own military reports acknowledge. ISIS would have arisen faster if they had stayed.

No WMDs? Then the Bush hating New York Times is lying?
the Americans didn't deal with AQ in Iraq? You'll have to provide that citation.

As far as the suit against Blair, we aren't talking about British servicemen and their enlistment contracts... Or did you not notice that from OPs post.

[A Dark Knight]

if you choose to accept in potentially dangerous syrians who are supposedly "just trying to get away from the war" then you should accept this guy too.

but i'm guessing he's not muslim, so he probably doesn't get any pc points.

people who signed up to the army and got basic training = civilians who found themselves in a middle of a war.
impeccable logic

[Tennis]

filing CO they probably would have gotten discharged, or sent somewhere that they wouldn't see combat.

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Advanta, the answer is brutally simple... you dont want to get sent to a combat zone... dont join the military, EVER. Saying they didn't KNOW they could get sent to a combat zone is pure idiocy... The power vacuum you speak of was created AFTER Obama pulled US troops out (Thanks Obama). If you are going to continue to respond to me at least know what you are talking about, please.

What time are these deserters going to be facing ?

[Seranthor]

What time are these deserters going to be facing ?

Depending on the circumstances of their desertion Article 85 prescribes at most 5 years confinement.

[Pantelija]

thats because what nazis did in the camps is whats known as illegal orders. invading a country is not an illegal order.
.

Thats totally legal, you know whats not legal ? People under 21 drinking alcohol, THATS LITERALLY HITLER!

[Karadros]

As an Englishman... y'all sound like a bunch of vindictive motherfuckers.

[Thimagryn]

Heres the thing though, coming from a combat veteran.

When you're in for a while and have time and heart invested in it, you forget about the politics. When you deploy its more about keeping the guy to the left and right of you alive. When you desert, you're not just deserting your obligations, but you are also deserting your friends and brothers in arms. It is cowardice of the highest form.

Sure, but we're not talking about people who have their time and heart invested in it. We're talking about the very people who are actively trying to escape it, for whatever reasons they may have. It seems obvious to me that priorities in other aspects of life have become more important than their willingness to serve for country. Call it cowardice or whatever you may, but there may well be more to it than just lack of heart. I think these are two separate issues that are unrelated, because proactively avoiding a war does not automatically equate to not taking a bullet for a comrade.

[The Stormbringer]

Also facing judicial action is Jeremy Brockway, 31, another U.S. Marine who returned from Iraq in 2007 with severe post-traumatic stress syndrome that keeps him largely housebound. He came to Canada in 2008 after being ordered to deploy to Iraq for a third time.

They want this guy to fucking fight? It sounds like he can barely function as a human being, let alone carry a gun and march to his death like a good toy soldier.

That is not in any way depreciating our soldiers, but rather judgement to those who order them around in the first place and treat them like they're disposable. Forcing people to kill and die for ridiculous causes that have nothing to do with them in the first place is deeply troubling and immoral. But this right here, trying to shove someone who has been mentally broken by combat back into a combat situation? That really disgusts me.

[Arcrin]

Thats totally legal, you know whats not legal ? People under 21 drinking alcohol, THATS LITERALLY HITLER!

i dont know if its sarcasm or what but your officers giving orders to go to war is not an illegal order. whether an invasion is illegal or not is dependent on the government and generals as i said in an earlier post. not the individual soldier.