I Had More Spells at Level 60.....

[shoegazing]

Pvp talents!

Have you played beta PvP?

'Cause those of us who have can tell you that it isn't pretty.

Artifacts and PvP talents return a little bit of what was pruned, but there's still much less there. PvP is more about damage and less about utility than ever before in the history of the game, and if that's what PvPers wanted we wouldn't be PvPers we would just go beat up a targeting dummy.

[RelaZ]

And yes, classes in WOTLK were a lot easier than they were in MoP or WoD (can't say legion as it is not out yet and I have not played all classes yet).

You can't be serious.

Again, it's as if you people think the only abilities in the game are the ones related to damage (well, in Legion they basically are).

[Deleted]

When WildStar with its (L)imited(A)ction(S)set and Guild Wars 2 with it's weapon based ability loadouts was all the rage, all the WoW tryhards wouldn't shut up about how "playing with 10-12 binds is overly simplistic" and how WoW has so much more depth with ability micromanagement making priority lists complex and exciting something impossible with 10-12 binds.

So either they were full of shit then and WoW was always 2-3 buttons to push with a ton of spellbook flotsam to be pruned, or they're full of shit now.

Can't have both.

Oh I know... it's a simple case of "Blizzard can do no wrong"
That explains all.

I have no idea what you are on about.
I never played wild star and never commented on it.

WoW has always been a handful of buttons in a rotation for PvE and a few more for PvP.
It was never a overly difficult task.

In vanilla/tbc it was the worst with your 1 button rotations and we have come a long way since then.

[wooters]

It's like you people are 100% incapable of understanding that raiding/PVE/PVP was even mentioned. What is your argument exactly? The word "rotation" itself has lost meaning over the years. There is no rotation in most modern day MMOs, but a priority system. That applies to PVP and PVE.

Now read what I wrote again instead of skimming it and taking from it what ever you wanted. As my example for Wildstar, the LAS had you having more than half your LAS as utility. This indicates that I know damn rightly there is more to gameplay than "dps rotation".

What is your argument exactly? Are you still believing that "more always = complex"?

it amuse me that people actually believe "pruning/good class fantasy" and "advanced/interesting" are two mutually exclusive ideas. they can`t be combined somehow

[shoegazing]

You can't be serious.

There is a kernel of truth to what he's saying, in that damage rotations were simpler back in WotLK.

To a PvEer, WotLK class design was quite simple. To a PvPer, WotLK class design was quite complex.

There is no reason however that we shouldn't be able to have both groups satisfied. Giving classes more utility use doesn't negatively impact PvE in any way.

[Deleted]

So do you deny that most of what was pruned falls on the situational/niche/utility/CC end of the spectrum?

Our argument is very, very simple. Classes are more oriented around "just do damage" than before with reduced options beyond "just do damage".

I do not deny that. What I deny is that the game is less complex than what it was. If anything, with the PVP talents, it rewards creativity for situations. Something like WOTLK never did. My argument is that the game is not less complex, but the same. The games complex playstyle is just in a different manner now, something you will learn when you hit those PVP talents.

[RelaZ]

There is a kernel of truth to what he's saying, in that damage rotations were simpler back in WotLK.

To a PvEer, WotLK class design was quite simple. To a PvPer, WotLK class design was quite complex.

There is no reason however that we shouldn't be able to have both groups satisfied. Giving classes more utility use doesn't negatively impact PvE in any way.

I know, I added a paragraph about it. He's only concerned with damage related abilities.

[shoegazing]

I dunno how about you, but I've played a Dragoon in FF14 and fuck me I do not miss ability bloats in WoW. Vanilla classes had too many borderline useless abilities - although some were fun, like Eyes of the Beast.

This is the Dragoon rotation:


And this isn't even the hardest rotation in that game. You also have to start all over again if you mess up your rotation, which results in a severe dps loss.

Literally no one in this thread is asking to add more damage rotation spells to the game.

Where does this dumb meme keep coming from?

We are asking for more utility and situational spells to use.

If all you care about is topping meters in your raid, it literally has zero effect on you anyway.

[Aleksej89]

I loved my hunter because he had a tool/utility for every situation.
My action bars as a hunter were 90% full and on a daily basis each and every one of those spells got used.

In legion my action bars as a hunter are barely 40% full... more than half is completely empty.
My hunter lost rage dispel, magic dispel, master's call, misdirection/traps got removed from some specs, glyphs that made mend pet insane, glyphed misdirection without cooldown...

[RelaZ]

no i am not forcing anyone the thing is the removed spells and gave them to others speccs or changed them to talents the seperated the spells as i see best exampel are hunters i found it boring to play all the speccs they felt the very similiar now they feel very diffrent which is a gameplay improvement for every of the 3 speccs but its only for me so i wanted survival melee back and now its there with traps which dont makes so much sense as bm dont forget my opinion

Maybe it was just because you didn't like the hunter playstyle overall? What about all the people that have mained hunters (Survival) for years and now their spec got turned into a casualized melee spec with only a bare minimum of their old utility left?

[shoegazing]

I do not deny that. What I deny is that the game is less complex than what it was. If anything, with the PVP talents, it rewards creativity for situations. Something like WOTLK never did. My argument is that the game is not less complex, but the same. The games complex playstyle is just in a different manner now, something you will learn when you hit those PVP talents.

Dude, I have played the beta. The other PvPers speaking out about the prune have played the beta.

PvP talents make it a little bit better but not by much.

[Raetary]

you mean when you had 8 pages full of abilities and used like not even 10% of them?

[Deleted]

You can't be serious.

Again, it's as if you people think the only abilities in the game are the ones related to damage (well, in Legion they basically are).

You literally took one part of my post, out of context, and said I do not understand? You do see that I mentioned debuffs for slowing people down as a prime example of your failing to understand the difference between a DoT and a debuff? Literally in the same post you quoted but kindly deleted.

No sir. You can't be serious.

[Aceveda]

you mean when you had 8 pages full of abilities and used like not even 10% of them?

You used 10%, I used 90%, removing 6 of those pages only drags me down to you level, how is that good for the game? No learning curve whatsoever?

[shoegazing]

You used 10%, I used 90%, removing 6 of those pages only drags me down to you level, how is that good for the game?

I'm starting to get the impression that dragging you down to their level is exactly what they want

[Dastreus]

I already miss Smoke Bomb. It was useful in some RP situations, and even better, if a tank was getting low on health, pop it on the tank for that 10% damage reduction and maybe save his/her ass.

[RelaZ]

You literally took one part of my post, out of context, and said I do not understand? You do see that I mentioned debuffs for slowing people down as a prime example of your failing to understand the difference between a DoT and a debuff? Literally in the same post you quoted but kindly deleted.

No sir. You can't be serious.

I did point out that I made a mistake about the HoT/DoT part because I wrote too fast in another post, I assumed you read the entire thread. I'm obviously not going to keep repeating myself.

Of course I'm going to point out the part of your posts which are terrible and incorrect, and it was in no way taken out of context. So again:

You sir, can't be serious about WoTLK being less complex than WoD. The game does/did not revolve only around damage related abilities. WoD had better DPS rotations (or priorities as you prefer, but you know exactly what I mean and it's only arguing semantics anyway just like the HoT/DoT thing) but 10x worse utility-design. And with Legion it's even worse.

[Pull My Finger]

What is your level of experience in rated PvP?

Again, I'll repeat that just because it's working for you in raids or in questing or whatever your preferred content, does not mean that it is working for other players in their preferred content.

PvP is now, moreso than ever before, very one dimensional. There are limited options for affecting the outcome of a match beyond "do more damage than the other guy" and that simply isn't very engaging in PvP. If all we cared about is damage we could just go beat up a target tummy.

You can keep calling me a bozo all you want but that doesn't make it true. I finished last season in the top 2% of the tryhard rated PvP ladder on multiple characters. I have a very advanced understanding of the game and I know what is and is not compelling gameplay for me.

Ah - NOW we're talking. Since it's clear now that you're thinking PvP and not these highly diversified kinds of players and all these different types of content in a vast massive multiplayer online game, and the usual canned phrases.

I'm not much of a PvP player any more. But that's a whole different topic. Or are you telling me that all these "bohoo, my spell book is gutted" whiners are 100% PvPers and all of this is actually solely about PvErs being happy and PvPers not? It's most certainly not like that. Perhaps the PvP community doesn't feel good about the redesigns. That's something I can accept. But it's not like all the complaining and whine is coming solely from that camp. From a PvE perspective, the whine is uneducated and insupportable.

PvE isn't just about "do more damage than everybody else" either, so I don't know what you're trying to get at with your argument. I also don't really care about how "advanced" you imagine your understanding of the game to be or what compelling gameplay is to you on a personal level. That's all irrelevant. The reason why I quit competitive PvP years ago (in WotLK) is mainly because it became way too much of a standarized memorizing and routine executing game. WAY too many abilities, WAY too much utility, counters of counters of counters upon counters upon CC and again CC etc. Ironically, I perceived it as the epitome of what you're criticizing right now: a limited and premediated set of possible outcomes. A sort of a chess game, won by those with superior reaction time and ping. It just became silly and was a direction I wasn't fond of - just like you don't seem to be fond of it right now. I felt that if ANYTHING needed pruning, it was PvP. Who cares?

Perhaps if I DID try out PvP now, I'd actually like it more because some of the changes, at least in theory, seem to lend themselves more towards an idea of playing that I prefered previously. Who cares. The claim is that the classes have been gutted, that there are no buttons any more to push, resulting in a lack of gameplay depth and it's just plain, factual nonsnse. "I don't like the feel" isn't "less depth".

[Aceveda]

I'm starting to get the impression that dragging you down to their level is exactly what they want

I mean, that must be it, selfish bad players asking blizzard to remove everyone elses options so we're all the same. Nothing left to master, wowza that will be fun in the long run. :^)

[ItachiZaku]

Yeah I remember smacking down with Eye of Kilrogg and Far Sight to get that sweet sweet advantage. Good times.

While you were doing that, I was teleporting to Moonglade.