[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Madus]

With the amount of burst frost/fire mages and warriors are doing, it'd be pretty hypocritical. Especially since moonkin is an utter glass cannon compared to mage.

Doesnt matter, in whole history of wow nerfs passed easiest.

[Nerxyrall]

Hi while testing and raiding etc, i was wondering if anybody has a good idea when to use the different AP-Generator talents.
I´m aware of multidot<->Burst need/FoE<->Singeltarget respectively, but i´m wondering when it isnt as obvious.


Without haste it looks kinda like that:
Shooting Stars : (Singeltarget 100% uptime of 2 dots) 0,5ap/sec
Astral Communion: 75/80 secs = ~0,9 Ap/s
Blessing of the Ancients : Anshe 0,8 AP/s ---- Elune 1,6 ap while casting SW/LS(disregarding starlord)


Astral Communion seems only worthwhile if burst on demand is needed/to maximize FoE uptime.


Does anybody have a realistic rundown at how effektive BotAE is(in comparison to Shooting Stars?
And how it is affected by differnt talent setups/haste lvls etc. Im not confident enough in my math/theroy/whatever-skills.

Thanks in advance.

[Zhere]

You are correct in AC being only for burst on demand ASP (Mainly for FoE or shorter kill times). It's also the only one completely unaffected by haste, as both BotA and SS gets increased effect from haste.

As SS and BotA scale equally from haste, Ill use values as if 0 haste. Both dots tick every 2 seconds, let's say you applied them with 1 sec inbetween each other for the sake of making math easier, that means every 1 second a 10% chance for 5 asp, or 0.5asp per second averaged. At 3 targets you get 1.5asp per second, which is 0.1 behind BotAE if you only used generators, but as you will be using other abilities (possibly refreshing dots, starsurge), the two talents are about equal with SS pulling slightly ahead at 3 targets, while also having a damage component and not being hindered by moving.

In general, if you can consistently keep 6 or more Moonfire and Sunfire (combined) up, go for SS.

[Cyous]

BOTA:E needs to factor in your time spent casting SW and LS. That gives you an effective benefit. Turns out, 2 targets at 100% uptime is ASP neutral.

[Kyanion]

BOTA:E needs to factor in your time spent casting SW and LS. That gives you an effective benefit. Turns out, 2 targets at 100% uptime is ASP neutral.

One thing I've noticed with these calculations is that the extra damage from Shooting Stars is never figured in either. Sure it may give less AP single target or neutral at 2 targets but in a long fight how much extra damage is that talent adding in vs the other ones?

Reason I ask is this: Let's say we have a mostly single target fight that lasts a few minutes, would the damage from Shooting Stars even out gaining a bit less AP from the other talents?

[Zhere]

On singletarget, using 0 haste again for sake of ease, you will have an average of 6 procs per minute (60 dot ticks, 10% chance), 252% spell damage, while a single starsurge is 585% assuming 0 mastery (highly unlikely), this isn't even counting empowerments. If we use what Cyous just said that means you generate about 60 asp/min from BotA:E, so 30 ASP/min more than one target of SS. 30 ASP is 75% of a starsurge, which means 438,75% spell damage (more depending on mastery and when you factor in empowerments which I was far too lazy to do). It's a definite DPS loss to go shooting stars on single target.

[Nerxyrall]

Thanks for the answers.

But good to know that shooting stars isnt totally terrible in singel target. So a Manno-like-fight might with adds who get sunfired and infernals double dotted be even better of using shooting stars.(or pretty neutral)

And something like Tyrant would probably be pretty equal then,too. The dmg+ would proably account for the fact that the adds are only there part of the fight (depends on strat etc of course)


When Shooting Stars ~ BotAE with two targets. Does that mean that BotAE does roughly 1AsP/s. In pure singel target a little bit more (since you have only to refresh dots on one target).

---

In pure singel target with Natures Balance and Starlord we should get pretty close to 1,6AsP/s (without haste). Only two dot application once, and 6seconds of MoonMoon-spells every 45secs. (Or am i missing something?)
@Cyous : Your wrote in your guide that FoE is still slightly better in singel target (~6-7% i think), is that with Natures Balance or without. Just wondering.

Thanks in advandse for the answers.

[Frostyfire14]

Here is a WeakAura for those who forget to double check BOTA:E is active!

Friend made it, but I edited it to be a bit more....friendly. Don't worry about it. :P

http://pastebin.com/1Wf1V4yd

It'll only show for when you are in Balance Spec, have Blessing of the Ancients talented, and are NOT in Blessing of the Ancients: Elune "stance".

[huth]

Astral Communion: 75/93 secs = 0,8 Ap/s

.333 minutes is 20 seconds. AC has 80s CD.

93 seconds is 1.55 minutes. (60*1.55 = 93)

It should be noted, however, that the CD is not affected by Haste, so under realistic conditions, it's still the weakest in AP/s.

[Nerxyrall]

.333 minutes is 20 seconds. AC has 80s CD.

93 seconds is 1.55 minutes. (60*1.55 = 93)

It should be noted, however, that the CD is not affected by Haste, so under realistic conditions, it's still the weakest in AP/s.

Thats why i shouldnt do mathy stuff ^^

But with a little haste it is still weaker so the conlcusion at least stands.

[Owlkin]

Thats why i shouldnt do mathy stuff ^^

But with a little haste it is still weaker so the conlcusion at least stands.

17.19% haste is not little. But hase is our main stat so its not problem.

[Cyous]

One thing I've noticed with these calculations is that the extra damage from Shooting Stars is never figured in either. Sure it may give less AP single target or neutral at 2 targets but in a long fight how much extra damage is that talent adding in vs the other ones?

Reason I ask is this: Let's say we have a mostly single target fight that lasts a few minutes, would the damage from Shooting Stars even out gaining a bit less AP from the other talents?

You can calculate the average number of procs. That leads to an average damage output from Shooting Stars (Spell Power is good enough). From this, we can just compare the Spell Power output against other effects, like the expect increase in ASP and the Starsurge output. As it turns out, Shooting Stars direct damage is very weak.

- - - Updated - - -

On singletarget, using 0 haste again for sake of ease, you will have an average of 6 procs per minute (60 dot ticks, 10% chance), 252% spell damage, while a single starsurge is 585% assuming 0 mastery (highly unlikely), this isn't even counting empowerments. If we use what Cyous just said that means you generate about 60 asp/min from BotA:E, so 30 ASP/min more than one target of SS. 30 ASP is 75% of a starsurge, which means 438,75% spell damage (more depending on mastery and when you factor in empowerments which I was far too lazy to do). It's a definite DPS loss to go shooting stars on single target.

BOTA:E is about 75 ASP/min.
SS is ~44 ASP/min per target at 100% uptime.

- - - Updated - - -

@Cyous : Your wrote in your guide that FoE is still slightly better in singel target (~6-7% i think), is that with Natures Balance or without. Just wondering.

Thanks in advandse for the answers.

6-7% better with PoG and only against Starsurge. It has nothing to do with Nature's Balance.

[huth]

BOTA:E is about 75 ASP/min.

How much time do you allocate for SW/LS casting?

[JoyeuxNoel]

I hate the starfall change...

[Nerxyrall]

6-7% better with PoG and only against Starsurge. It has nothing to do with Nature's Balance.[/QUOTE]

I proably worded it stupid or my "real" question didnt come across:

If i have a singel target encounter (in Legion) will FoE be weaker than Natures Balance?(with PoG)
You wouldnt get as much out of Starlord too. (since you dont get benefit of it while maintaining FoE)

Or is FoE still superior?

[Deleted]

So on my guilds mythic archimonde kill tonight my class trinket apparently stopped working. In phases 1 and 2 it procced as normal, but in phase 3 it just never procced at all. I cast 11 starsurges in the last phase, each 78% from 751 trinket, so that would be 0.065% chance of happening. Is this a bug other people have experienced or extreme bad luck?

[Deleted]

The thing I'm thinking about with FoE is how reliable it is to keep a target in it for the duration. Sure you can move it but that takes at least a second if you have good reaction times and coordination and aren't in the middle of casting. Imagine you have to move FoE just as you start casting Full Moon...some rng involved in that sense. It's an ability I'd rarely use in pugs, but in a coordinated raid group it's a lot easier to tell the tanks to move the target as little as possible.

- - - Updated - - -

So on my guilds mythic archimonde kill tonight my class trinket apparently stopped working. In phases 1 and 2 it procced as normal, but in phase 3 it just never procced at all. I cast 11 starsurges in the last phase, each 78% from 751 trinket, so that would be 0.065% chance of happening. Is this a bug other people have experienced or extreme bad luck?

I was practicing on dummies earlier and it stopped proccing but I thought I was just getting insanely unlucky. 8 SS in a row and no proc at 64% chance with heroic trinket...definitely bugged I guess. No big deal though it's just pre-patch.

[Mrbleedinggums]

So on my guilds mythic archimonde kill tonight my class trinket apparently stopped working. In phases 1 and 2 it procced as normal, but in phase 3 it just never procced at all. I cast 11 starsurges in the last phase, each 78% from 751 trinket, so that would be 0.065% chance of happening. Is this a bug other people have experienced or extreme bad luck?

I think it is because there is no floor underneath Archimonde so there is no path to line up the starfall, which should be an unintended effect.

[Cyous]

How much time do you allocate for SW/LS casting?

It was about 35sec of hardcasting, factoring in ~9sec per minute per MoonMoon cycling, ~9sec of DOT refreshes, and filler Starsurge casts.

1.65sec per cast (average) = 21 casts.

8 vs 11.2 = 3.2 = per 35sec hardcasting. (average ASP per cast, and the BOTA:E difference)

figure 15sec of CA hardcasting, every 3min. 15/1.65 = 9 casts (3 = 3min cooldown, 60sec trial) = (3.2*1.5) = +4.8 = 67.2 + 4.8 = 72 APS/(35sec/min)

[Deleted]

Do i see that right, that i can prevent the asp bar from dropping by perma shapeshifting like a spastic after every fight till the next pull? What bullshit is this please? If thats Blizzards intented way of "resource management" then the boomkin can kiss my ass.