Best and worst designed class?

[Shirofune]

I played it on beta. A lot. I enjoyed it. It may need tuning/tweaking, but it's not nearly as bad as the hunter community makes it out to be. I totally get being passionate for your class but labeling it "worst design" because it has some problems is just hyperbolic.

Is not "some problems". The core of the rotation is horrendous, and the whole Hunter community has been saying it since the first build, and instead of fixing it, they made it worse.

The first iteration of Hunter's Mark relied on Arcane shot spam. The 2nd one relied on AA shots. Both of em were RNG, though. It wouldn't be bad if you could rotate without the proc, but you can't!

EVERYTHING except Barrage hits like a wet noodle without Vulnerable.

You can't expect people to enjoy a rotation whose core is based upon RNG.

Procs should add bonuses to the rotation in the form of damage/uptime. They shouldn't be needed to rotate AT ALL.

[Drekmar]

Best - idk.
Worst - Blood and Unholy DK.

[Deleted]

Procs should add bonuses to the rotation in the form of damage/uptime. They shouldn't be needed to rotate AT ALL.

You mean like Fire Mages being based on double crits to proc their main damage spell for ... 3 expansions now? 4?

Or any other mage spec for that matter having their core rotational spells gated behind random procs.


If that is your core complaint I got bad news for you because it still isn't enough to make your class the worst designed.

[Shirofune]

You mean like Fire Mages being based on double crits to proc their main damage spell for ... 3 expansions now? 4?

Or any other mage spec for that matter having their core rotational spells gated behind random procs.


If that is your core complaint I got bad news for you because it still isn't enough to make your class the worst designed.

A mage can rotate even if they don't get procs. And their proc isn't based on luck, but on crit. As you gear, you get more crit. Also, mages had for like 2 expansions a way to force the second crit to get a Hot Streak. Their rotation has fillers that at least do damage. Sure, it isn't the same, but is way better than being a sitting duck spamming Arcane Shot.

If you're comparing a RNG proc with a proc based on an oncrit chance then I don't even know why we're talking about.

Bad design for me: WoD Divine Storm proc.

[Exerionx]

Yes I read all of the utilityspells you mentioned. I wasn´t saying that the class had no utility left. My focus was the core gameplay of the class. And regarding BoS, it was on the last tier of talents, I was talking about the first tier since you reffered to unholy blight... But let´s just end this, I don´t really care for a discussion with one part claiming the other one is clueless, nothing good will ever come from that. Imo the spec is boring now with a rotation set in stone and no gameplay options anymore. If you feel otherwise thats completely fine. If you enjoy the spec, that´s great for you but don´t expect everyone else to feel the same way. As someone else mentioned he loved the changes pushing the spec more towards QoL as he put it, it´s completely fine and I understand how people think that. I don´t call him clueless just because he likes a spec I don´t.

I can't be bothered arguing anymore either. I'm not calling you clueless out of spite or rage, but you're trying to argue that UH is bland and boring for reasons that are blatantly not true (No pet management, no gameplay options)?

Anyways, agree to disagree I guess.

[Deleted]

A mage can rotate even if they don't get procs.

What does that even mean? If we don't get procs we'll literally just spam Fireball. How is that worse than spamming Aimed Shot + Arcane Shot in terms of "bad proc luck rotation"?

And their proc isn't based on luck, but on crit.

OH I SEE. And crit is based on ... what again?

As you gear, you get more crit. Also, mages had for like 2 expansions a way to force the second crit to get a Hot Streak. Sure, it isn't the same, but is way better than being a sitting duck spamming Arcane Shot.

Sorry but let me just call you out on grasping for straws here. None of this changes the fact that at it's core a mage's rotation is gated behind procs, something that somehow all of a sudden makes Hunters the WORST DESIGNED CLASS in the game.

Their rotation has fillers that at least do damage.

Unlike Hunters who do nothing but wait for Vulnerable procs to use Marked Shot, right? Aimed Shot and Arcane Shot are not a thing. Meanwhile mages can use all those super effective spells as fillers between procs (please name them because I have no clue what you are talking about)

If you're comparing a RNG proc with a proc based on an oncrit chance then I don't even know why we're talking about.

Bad design for me: WoD Divine Storm proc.

Crit is RNG. Literally. How you can say that I cannot compare an RNG proc to another RNG proc is beyond me. Whining for the sole purpose of whining is my guess.

[Shirofune]

What does that even mean? If we don't get procs we'll literally just spam Fireball. How is that worse than spamming Aimed Shot + Arcane Shot in terms of "bad proc luck rotation"?

You don't spam Aimed Shot. You spam Arcane Shot / run Sidewinders to avoid the shitty RNG crap. You should wonder why 95% of the Hunters run Patient Sniper / Sidewinders if the spec is any fun to play with stacking a RRPM debuff.

Arcane shot is a Focus Generator. You're sitting full focus spamming your generator to HOPE to get a proc based on RNG.

OH I SEE. And crit is based on ... what again?

Statistics. You can't compare a 35-50% proc that INCREASES by 10% everytime you fail to crit a Fireball with a 6 RRPM proc.

Sorry but let me just call you out on grasping for straws here. None of this changes the fact that at it's core a mage's rotation is gated behind procs, something that somehow all of a sudden makes Hunters the WORST DESIGNED CLASS in the game.

Just by your previous facts you showed you didn't play Hunter, so you can't really say. I play Fire Mage, and Fire Mage in Legion feels good, even with low crit. (34% atm). You're always doing something, and that's what matters. You're not as a Hunter, as spamming a focus generator when you're focus capped feels like shit.

Unlike Hunters who do nothing but wait for Vulnerable procs to use Marked Shot, right? Aimed Shot and Arcane Shot are not a thing. Meanwhile mages can use all those super effective spells as fillers between procs (please name them because I have no clue what you are talking about)

Yeah, Arcane Shot. If you're using Aimed Shot without Vulnerable you're doing it wrong.

Fireball. You only need a crit. You use a Fire Blast for the second. If you fail to crit your first Fireball, your second will have a 10% increased chance. You won't be more than 5 seconds without a crit as a mage, and that chances get lower as you gear. Such thing doesn't happen as a hunter, as Hunter's Mark proc is based on time, not on "use" (and both are a crap, on crit is way healthier, as you can somewhat mitigate the effect, you don't with RNG procs).

I didn't even consider the artifact weapon skill, that is also 100% crit to force your 2nd crit.

Crit is RNG. Literally. How you can say that I cannot compare an RNG proc to another RNG proc is beyond me. Whining for the sole purpose of whining is my guess.

On-crit procs increase their chance to proc with crit. RNG procs increase their chance to proc with... nothing.

[Deleted]

You don't spam Aimed Shot. You spam Arcane Shot / run Sidewinders to avoid the shitty RNG crap. You should wonder why 95% of the Hunters run Patient Sniper / Sidewinders if the spec is any fun to play with stacking a RRPM debuff.

Arcane shot is a Focus Generator. You're sitting full focus spamming your generator to HOPE to get a proc based on RNG.

Ridiculous hyperbole. When I leveled my Hunter on beta I never did that and I had plenty of procs.

Statistics. You can't compare a 35-50% proc that INCREASES by 10% everytime you fail to crit a Fireball with a 6 RRPM proc.

Yes you can. Both are balanced towards your overall DPS. If your proc had a 40%+ proc chance, you'd have to get nerfed in other areas.

Just by your previous facts you showed you didn't play Hunter, so you can't really say. I play Fire Mage, and Fire Mage in Legion feels good, even with low crit. (34% atm). You're always doing something, and that's what matters. You're not as a Hunter, as spamming a focus generator when you're focus capped feels like shit.

I showed? I played several hours of Hunter on the beta realm. Don't make yourself look like a moron by making such utterly ridiculous statements. If your proc is based on 6PPM then spamming your ability is idiotic anyways.

Fireball. You only need a crit. You use a Fire Blast for the second. If you fail to crit your first Fireball, your second will have a 10% increased chance. You won't be more than 5 seconds without a crit as a mage, and that chances get lower as you gear. Such thing doesn't happen as a hunter, as Hunter's Mark proc is based on time, not on "use" (and both are a crap, on crit is way healthier, as you can somewhat mitigate the effect, you don't with RNG procs).

Jesus christ they are different classes. If you love fire mage procs so much play it over your hunter. What the hell is wrong with you?

[Shirofune]

Ridiculous hyperbole. When I leveled my Hunter on beta I never did that and I had plenty of procs.

Go to the Hunter Forums and try to search for MM Hunter that doesn't run Sidewinders. That way you can stop searching for insight outside of your and my opinion. If everyone runs that talent is to avoid the RNG. Because you know what? RNG isn't reliable. And it isn't fun when your core rotation is tied to it.

Perfect example. Thrill of the Hunt. MM proc in WoD. It was fun, it made you spend less focus per Aimed Shot, made your rotation way more solid, but it didn't mean you couldn't rotate when you didn't have it. It just meant you couldn't use as much Aimed Shots.

Yes you can. Both are balanced towards your overall DPS. If your proc had a 40%+ proc chance, you'd have to get nerfed in other areas.

Probably. I still prefer to have a solid proc chance than a RRPM bullshit. Damage doesn't make a class playable only.

I showed? I played several hours of Hunter on the beta realm. Don't make yourself look like a moron by making such utterly ridiculous statements. If your proc is based on 6PPM then spamming your ability is idiotic anyways.

I stated that fact because you said "Using Aimed Shot and Arcane Shots with no Vulnerable". That just shows no knowledge about MM Hunter at all.

Good, I better stay for 10~ seconds sitting doing nothing. Such a fun and enjoyable class to play. Actually you're right, since the proc isn't tied to Arcane Shot :P.

Jesus christ they are different classes. If you love fire mage procs so much play it over your hunter. What the hell is wrong with you?

Who says I'm playing Hunter in Legion? I'm playing it now 'cause MM Hunter was my main in WoD and I've to keep raiding in the prepatch with my geared character. I'm rerolling the moment DHs are out, lol.

[Kazgrel]

Just reading the changes and responses to ele shaman guarantee it's certified shit status, just like the start of every WoW expansion prior to Legion.

[Coils]

Hmm... Well yea it's possible to spec into shadow infusion but seing how hard they are pushing the synergy between SS and DC in legion I have a feeling everyone will be running Necrosis, not the pet management talent. Also, runic power management will most likely not be something you even have to think about in regards to this new synergy. Since you will want to buff every single SS with a DC I find it hard to see anyone wasting runic power. And regarding dots, sure I can see how some ppl find it QoL now that the dot spreads automatically. But imo they took too much away in terms of gameplay, I want to make descisions when playing, I don't want to know I'm maxing the spec by hitting a rotation set in stone e.g 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3. I also feel the need to say that this is my opinion, ofc I expect ppl to have many other opinions and noone is really wrong. Different ppl like different things. For me this spec is incredibly boring in 7.0.

I definitely agree with your thoughts *assuming* that the talent balancing will force you to choose the layout you mentioned. My opinions are rooted solely in the *assumption* that talents will be competitively balanced. My main praise for Unholy is that you have a talent layout that allows you to make the rotation easy/hard at your will.

To bring the convo back on-topic and less tangential, honestly our opinions of every spec will change based on talent balancing. If player A loves Enhance because Boulderfist removes Rockbiter spam, but Boulderfist is not competitive numbers-wise, then will they still come to the forum and post about how they like it? Probably not :P

[shaunika123]

best: maybe arms warrior? (in the context that it improved the most)
worst BM monk

[Deleted]

Ret Pally is definitely the worst from what I've been able to test... here's my personal take on most melee classes :

#8 Paladin Retribution: well... Blizz has actually broke this spec so much that I almost deleted my Paladin (would have done it if it wasn't for all the nice things he collected over the years and the memories I have with this toon...). Gameplay is just so bad and clunky, there's no dynamism, DPS is far behind other melee spec and even the combat animations are dull... It's slow af, no real mobility (you often find yourself starting to deal damage after every other class has already engaged the target...), an d unless you get enough haste, the judgement mecanic is just not working. Even then, it feels painful. I'm doing far less damage with a 720 ret pal than with my 703 Windwalker atm on live. I just can't begin to comprehend what Blizz has done to this spec.

I have almost exact same opinion on ret paladins. And I know why are so broken now, is because Arena PVP.

Just before BC to come, was a pre-expansion patch, just like now, I think that was the best ever ret paladin made by Blizzard, then comes Arena, and then comes all other normalization and nerfs around PVP and all classes started to lose identity with every patch.. So best ever paladin era was only 2 weeks imo.

But now.. feels like something else, is like I am playing other game. Is not really fun to play ret paladin, your right, looks so broken as mechanic.

[wonderlust]

Best: Fury Warrior. Very fun rotation with a lot going on all the time. Their only flaw is how much damage they take.

(Honorable mentions for Best: Enhancement Shaman and Frost DK, as I'm also really enjoying those two.)

Worst: Ret Paladin. Centering the spec around the Judgment debuff made the rotation stiff and predictable, and talents barely change it at all. Most of its fun and iconic abilities were removed.

[Sliske]

Do people even play destruction? I'd say destruction easily for worst.

Best, theres a lot tbh. I like a lot of specs in Legion.

MM Hunter, Fury/Arms Warrior, Demo/Affliction Lock, Spriest, Outlaw Rogue, Unholy DK.

My favourite specs are mostly in the context of pvp. Arms pve imo is unplayably bad, same for MM. but in pvp they are quite fun.

Once again i'd just like to say the following, as I do in every thread where spec complaining arises - this expansion is designed with artifacts in mind. Your specs are heavily designed with your artifacts in mind. So the fact that you do not have them right now, is not only a huge blunder by Blizzard releasing the specs to us with essentially 1/3rd of our components missing (in some cases, essential components) but its also a mistake to judge them right now.

Really, you shouldn't judge your spec as it is on live. You should be judging Blizzard for throwing out a car without its wheels. I cannot express much of a bad decision this was. I tweeted the devs multiple times in the lead up to 7.0 advising them to make the gap between 7.0 and legion launch as short as possible.

How many people resubbed for 7.0, saw how terrible their class was (Without realizing that their artifact was a good 1/3rd (or more) of their classes toolkit) and instantly unsubbed and won't try the game again for the foreseeable future? I imagine it is easily in the tens of thousands.

[Nyssie]

I'm actually really enjoying elemental again (I haven't really liked it since ICC). I love the mastery being reverted to overload and that shocks are no cooldown and independent of each other. The only thing I really don't like about it is earthquake being tied to a totem and maelstrom, that feels weak (but I honestly just loathe earthquake anyway, I wish it would have gotten purged). I haven't alted enough since patch to determine best/worst yet.

[Tyrannica]

considering all content pve and pvp and spec only not class, because every class is useful as a class.

And this is just about the design not numbers.

worst is frost dk too many filler talents, fillers in the artefact weapon too, long cool downs, no def/mobility at friggin all, no interesting new abilities that i would care about.

Best design, probably ww monk or arms warrior.

Special mention is the shadowpriest, who got a new design that only really works with his artefakt weapon so prepatch will hurt his playstyle a lot and give wrong impressions, that said, cast time on voidform is wrong, feels wrong and has no place in the game.

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Well, designwise they all.... work. Nothing more than that though. I've tried all my favourite specs but for legion I don't really find any spec fun. But yeah, they all work. Numbers are irrelevant for me, I've just been searching for a fun spec to play in legion. But I simply can't find that feeling you got when pulling awesome stuff off. Because it seems you can't pull awesome stuff off anymore.

UH DK's for example, no petmanagement at all, and the only dot they have left spreads on it's own. You really can't do anything that wrong but at the same time you can't pull anything awesome off either. Druids awesome starfall was ruined, and burst and aoe now require a long ramp up. Feral lost the feeling of swiftness when shapeshifting out of slows/snares in pvp, MM hunter got tons of abilties that all feel the same and hit for mediocre dmg instead of a few ones hitting really hard. Assassin no longer have their awesome poison fantasy. Affliction have to stack UA which also feels really wierd in pvp. Spriest I havn't even tried tbh, looks stressful and not fun at all imo. Now this is all subjective and what I find boring, others might find really fun. This is just my experience so far while searching for a spec with fun gameplay for legion. Hopefully I didn't come off as negative as I think I did.

If I have to say something I liked so far, it's the heroic leap animation. That has some nice feeling to it, a feeling of awesomeness. Maby I'll just stay at 100 and heroic leap all day long like a boss.

assassin is the only rogue with actually poisons, poison is removed for outlaw and sub, so you might overthink that sentence - of course currently assassin only deals high burst dmg with rupture what is a physical dot.

I think you should really try WW Monk to see a fluent design, especially in PvP that you mentioned. Most fun melee spec for sure and highly effective. play it or watch a video.

Uh will be garbage without blood presence and deathcoil pet heals. Not wasting time here.

Arms on the otherhand still got def stance working like blood presence.

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I'm surprised to see so many people mention Unholy, I thought it felt absolutely awful to play.

why should it be awful to play?

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Unholy DK feels great. Mostly played BGs with it since I cba to raid atm. It has awesome spread AoE damage, powerful ranged abilities and can kite other melee pretty well with Chains of Ice. I'm also enjoying having a pet grip. Would be nice if it got some pet model updates though, that Abomination looks really old.

spamming outburst on everytarget for overall dmg, won't achieve anything in a bg to help win your side.

Are you aware that the uh dk is doomed once his pet is killed?

he has no blood presence

no valuable selfheals

no hard cc witout the pet

no absorb shield without the pet

and lastly there is no pethealing via deathcoil anymore.


I'd say the come back of necrotic strike had an ridiciulous high price.

[axlkix]

considering all content pve and pvp and spec only not class, because every class is useful as a class.

And this is just about the design not numbers.

worst is frost dk too many filler talents, fillers in the artefact weapon too, long cool downs, no def/mobility at friggin all, no interesting new abilities that i would care about.

Best design, probably ww monk or arms warrior.

Special mention is the shadowpriest, who got a new design that only really works with his artefakt weapon so prepatch will hurt his playstyle a lot and give wrong impressions, that said, cast time on voidform is wrong, feels wrong and has no place in the game.

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assassin is the only rogue with actually poisons, poison is removed for outlaw and sub, so you might overthink that sentence - of course currently assassin only deals high burst dmg with rupture what is a physical dot.

I think you should really try WW Monk to see a fluent design, especially in PvP that you mentioned. Most fun melee spec for sure and highly effective. play it or watch a video.

Uh will be garbage without blood presence and deathcoil pet heals. Not wasting time here.

Arms on the otherhand still got def stance working like blood presence.

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why should it be awful to play?

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spamming outburst on everytarget for overall dmg, won't achieve anything in a bg to help win your side.

Are you aware that the uh dk is doomed once his pet is killed?

he has no blood presence

no valuable selfheals

no hard cc witout the pet

no absorb shield without the pet

and lastly there is no pethealing via deathcoil anymore.


I'd say the come back of necrotic strike had an ridiciulous high price.

Really? WW monk is my main for PVE, I tried last week in pvp beta and seems boring to me. Maybe i should give it another chance

[Tyrannica]

- S Priest. Very immobile, possibly the worst of all casters. A single stunlock and shutdown is the end of the S priest. That said, standing behind my allies like a true priest should and free casting is making me top the charts in damage and kills.

wrong, you want to check the shadow artifact and pvp talents again. Insane burst heals, insane dispersion, that could be brought down to a 1,5min cd and heals 50% of the total hp along with it beeing moveable and reducing dmg by 60%, castable in stuns and other cc.

If this is weak for you i do not have more words, other than, you seem to have played only on live servers and not the beta.

watch this for a lvl110 beta Arena games with shadow priest the first one is with 3 shadow priests on a team.



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Really? WW monk is my main for PVE, I tried last week in pvp beta and seems boring to me. Maybe i should give it another chance

not boring at all, there is a lot of mobility and selfheals and you can move in your aoe stun fist of fury now. Maybe its just because you played PvE only? i play both.

[Deleted]

I'd say Demo lock or bm hunter. I've always liked pet classes from an RPG standpoint, but they've always been terrible (even when competitive) as pets as a mechanic always have inherent problems and have had constant issues since original game launched.