[SURVIVAL]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I think the main reason you want to use Throwing Axes before AotE and entering MB window is because you want it on CD. Therefore you won't lose DPS of it "not recharging". Meaning that it is worth to delay the MB window by 1 GCD to get Throwing Axes on CD, you won't use both charges (as far as I know) of Throwing Axes in the opener.

What I don't understand in the opener is why Lacerate isn't there, seeing as it does more damage than Throwing Axes over time.

Yeah my opening sequence has been more like ET>AoE>MBx3>SH>MBx3>Lacerate>focus burners, starting with Carve if multi-target or axes if single.

But as with spec, I am adjusting daily.

[Typhod]

Yeah my opening sequence has been more like ET>AoE>MBx3>SH>MBx3>Lacerate>focus burners, starting with Carve if multi-target or axes if single.

But as with spec, I am adjusting daily.

Why would you not use DfG in your opener? The damage it does is huge in comparision to many of our other abilities except a 6 stacks MB, but I've very rarely stumbled upon not being able to use all my MB in my window when popping CDs unless you get some mad procs.

My opener is more like this (without any Hunteing Companion procs):

ET>DfG>Lacerate>Throwing Axes x1>AotE>MBx3>SH>MBx3>proceed as normal rotation with MB as my highest priority until the window is gone.

This way I'm delaying MB with 3 more GCD than you but as long as I don't enter the MB window and popping CDs then it shouldnt matter in the long run.

EDIT: Oh, you're using Serpent Sting instead of DfG, then why don't you use a RS in your opener? (instead of DfG)

[Maxilian]

Isn't WotM better? it could be a little harder to use (mainly because of the lack of UI helper that tells you where you stacks are and how much time do you have to reset it -because of that you will expend way too much time just looking at the icons-)

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Why would you not use DfG in your opener? The damage it does is huge in comparision to many of our other abilities except a 6 stacks MB, but I've very rarely stumbled upon not being able to use all my MB in my window when popping CDs unless you get some mad procs.

My opener is more like this (without any Hunteing Companion procs):

ET>DfG>Lacerate>Throwing Axes x1>AotE>MBx3>SH>MBx3>proceed as normal rotation with MB as my highest priority until the window is gone.

This way I'm delaying MB with 3 more GCD than you but as long as I don't enter the MB window and popping CDs then it shouldnt matter in the long run.

EDIT: Oh, you're using Serpent Sting instead of DfG, then why don't you use a RS in your opener? (instead of DfG)

I've been applying Serpent Sting when I get to focus burners, since it applies with RS or Carve, but you're right I probably should be getting it in sooner.

- - - Updated - - -

Isn't WotM better? it could be a little harder to use (mainly because of the lack of UI helper that tells you where you stacks are and how much time do you have to reset it -because of that you will expend way too much time just looking at the icons-)

Icy Veins lists it as equivalent on ST and better on multi-target, but it's a lot more complicated to use. I gave up on it for now because trying to keep my stacks up was interfering so much with the rest of my rotation. If the boss moves or I have to use defensives or get some extra MB procs, the stacks fall off anyway. And RS by itself is probably our softest attack.

That said, I am quite sure there is a lot I can do to get better at playing this spec. Which makes me happy. This is probably one of the more interesting specs to be playing in Legion.

[ItachiZaku]

I'm still leveling, but FS feels like it should be strong, but it never factors into my top 3 damage dealers. At what point is it scrapped entirely? Only level 81 atm.

[Tokee]

Isn't WotM better? it could be a little harder to use (mainly because of the lack of UI helper that tells you where you stacks are and how much time do you have to reset it -because of that you will expend way too much time just looking at the icons-)

Right now Throwing Axes and WOTM are effectively the same in the testing I've seen in Single Target fights.

The two biggest issues with WOTM are:

Difficult to maintain peak uptime, even with a WeakAura. Delaying an ET or DfG for a Raptor Strike to refresh is a slight loss in DPS.
Current Haste % does not support the Focus regeneration to maintain peak uptime.

The fact is, Throwing Axes is just easier to use in Single Target fights. In Multi-target fights, WOTM will be better because it boosts all attack damage. The problem with that is, Survival AoE kinda sucks anyway.

In simulations at 110 its very possible to maintain 95% uptime but without Haste you run into situations where your Focus is so low you may delay traps or worse - your burst sequence. Once we get to higher Haste%, I believe WOTM will be the best out of that tier.

The first tier of raid content has A LOT of Crit on mail gear, with Haste and Versatility peppered in. Throwing Axes will still be better until we get optimized stats on our gear.

[Eapoe]

I think the 4pc should be great; it's the 2pc I find lacking. I hit six stacks with every opener by using Snake Hunter, then again every time it comes off cd. But a buff to FS is a buff to the talent we rarely use. Aspect of the Beast is a waste for the same reason. They should consider re-tuning FS so we might actually get to enjoy the various buffs they offer for it.

Yeah, but it's a buff every 3 minutes for 50% damage for 6 seconds. Just very lackluster, unless there's something to increase MB charges faster on the weapon or something like that, especially when compared to something that increases damage under every minute for BM or every 1-2 minutes for MM. That's why I'm asking if I am missing something somewhere or just our first tier set bonuses are garbage.

[Zulkhan]

The more I think about it tonight, the more I'm inclined to spec Expert Trapper. It's just a better all-around talent than the other two. Spitting Cobra might payoff during long boss fights, but even then only by a slim margin. Expert Trapper is passive and effective, applying to short fights, long fights, and even pvp situations.

Expert Trapper is the only way to go for PvP right now. It single-handely boosts your whole trap toolkit and traps are your most important weapon in any PvP environment.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Right now Throwing Axes and WOTM are effectively the same in the testing I've seen in Single Target fights.

The two biggest issues with WOTM are:

Difficult to maintain peak uptime, even with a WeakAura. Delaying an ET or DfG for a Raptor Strike to refresh is a slight loss in DPS.
Current Haste % does not support the Focus regeneration to maintain peak uptime.

The fact is, Throwing Axes is just easier to use in Single Target fights. In Multi-target fights, WOTM will be better because it boosts all attack damage. The problem with that is, Survival AoE kinda sucks anyway.

In simulations at 110 its very possible to maintain 95% uptime but without Haste you run into situations where your Focus is so low you may delay traps or worse - your burst sequence. Once we get to higher Haste%, I believe WOTM will be the best out of that tier.

The first tier of raid content has A LOT of Crit on mail gear, with Haste and Versatility peppered in. Throwing Axes will still be better until we get optimized stats on our gear.

Good info and breakdown - thanks!

- - - Updated - - -

I'm still leveling, but FS feels like it should be strong, but it never factors into my top 3 damage dealers. At what point is it scrapped entirely? Only level 81 atm.

I'm reading that it's last in terms of damage per focus spent, so only worth using when you're near focus cap. It's somewhat better vs. low health targets because it does hit hard and the fight is over quick, but it's hugely inefficient.

[ItachiZaku]

I'm reading that it's last in terms of damage per focus spent, so only worth using when you're near focus cap. It's somewhat better vs. low health targets because it does hit hard and the fight is over quick, but it's hugely inefficient.

So leveling trash, but prepare to remove it from rotation for the most part, gotcha.

[Kwaai]

So leveling trash, but prepare to remove it from rotation for the most part, gotcha.

Yeah, consider it a focus dump and use it when you have nothing else to do.

[Deleted]

How well is survival doing ? Is it a spec , that will do well in mythic raiding? Thanks in advance.

[Keltas]

How well is survival doing ? Is it a spec , that will do well in mythic raiding? Thanks in advance.

It does good burst single target, and does well enough otherwise that I could imagine it having a place in a mythic guild. It has some pretty decent burst cleave as well, although it's not a WW.

It's in the upper melee specs, in my opinion. Still might be hard to justify a spot when you could instead be ranged, but if you aren't like top 5 world I'm sure you could get away with it.


Only major problem it still has is how useless mastery is. They refuse to add MB damage to it, but that's probably the only way to make it anywhere near the other stats in value.

[Atraxxas]

Yeah, consider it a focus dump and use it when you have nothing else to do.

But is it really viable to count in Raptor Strike, if you don't spec Serpent Sting?
I will have to do some testing after work, but with Throwing Axes and Dragonfire Grenade specced i think i can easily fill the CD Gaps of FS.

Also using MB in between should work out as well, or am i wrong?

[Deleted]

It does good burst single target, and does well enough otherwise that I could imagine it having a place in a mythic guild. It has some pretty decent burst cleave as well, although it's not a WW.

It's in the upper melee specs, in my opinion. Still might be hard to justify a spot when you could instead be ranged, but if you aren't like top 5 world I'm sure you could get away with it.


Only major problem it still has is how useless mastery is. They refuse to add MB damage to it, but that's probably the only way to make it anywhere near the other stats in value.

Ah okay , thank you good sir.

[Typhod]

But is it really viable to count in Raptor Strike, if you don't spec Serpent Sting?
I will have to do some testing after work, but with Throwing Axes and Dragonfire Grenade specced i think i can easily fill the CD Gaps of FS.

Also using MB in between should work out as well, or am i wrong?

Raptor Strike does even less damage per focus than FS. The only time I've used RS is during BL + Berserking (since I'm a troll) and are reaching focus cap faster than FS CD is done AND none of my other abilities are available.
I'd say that I use approximately 1 RS per boss fight as most other abilities are available to use when FS is on CD and I'm about to cap focus. Capping focus isnt as horrible for SV as it once was due to our focus spenders are low-impact apart from THhrowing Axes and Lacerate.

Be careful with using MB as you don't want to enter a new Mongoose Fury window with only 1 (or 2) charge of MB available.

[Zulkhan]

Be careful with using MB as you don't want to enter a new Mongoose Fury window with only 1 (or 2) charge of MB available.

Still not advisable to let it sit for even a second on 3 charges. Going for on 2 charges is the ideal way, you should just start the cycle when the third is about to come.

[Typhod]

Still not advisable to let it sit for even a second on 3 charges. Going for on 2 charges is the ideal way, you should just start the cycle when the third is about to come.

Yes of course, unless AotE are about to come off its CD.